Key Takeaway: The grief attack is not a system failure. It is the murky, beautiful, painful reality of love persisting through transformation. The wave will pass, but the connection remains, if we remain anchored. In this episode we discuss these anchors.

This is available now as audio podcast (below) and will be available as a Video Podcast on Youtube in the near future. Available in video now for Supporting Members or on Patreon.com/BuddhaWeekly.

Is This Episode Right for You?

Is this podcast for you? Yes, if you:

• Have experienced a panic attack triggered by grief, loss, or the fear of loss
• Are supporting someone who is dying or grieving
• Have lost a beloved pet and feel disenfranchised in your grief
• Want both biological tools (breath, vagus nerve) and philosophical frameworks (emptiness, non-fabrication, transformation)
• Are curious how 8th-century Tibetan wisdom and modern palliative care converge on the same practical advice
• Appreciate a blend of neuroscience, Buddhist psychology, and heart-centered storytelling

✅  ALWAYS SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP FOR SERIOUS ISSUES. This podcast is only intended for discussion, education and information. See citations below.

Maybe skip if you:

• Are looking for a short, surface-level overview (this is nearly 50 minutes, quite in-depth)
• Prefer purely secular content without Buddhist framework (though the episode explicitly addresses secular listeners)

 

This will be available as a Video Podcast in the near future. Available now for Supporting Members or on Patreon.com/BuddhaWeekly

Dave Lang an Josephine Nolan opens today’s video podcast with a visceral thought experiment: you’re standing in aisle four of a grocery store, perfectly safe, deciding between bran and oats. Then an invisible 50-foot wave crashes over you. You can’t breathe, your heart hammers like a trapped bird, the floor drops away, your vision darkens, and primal terror swallows your mind.

This is known as a grief attack — one of the most staggering forces a human being can endure. There is no physical threat, only a memory or a sudden piercing realization that someone you love is gone, or will be soon.

This deep dive examines the grief attack through a dual lens: modern palliative care insight (including Andrea Levine and Australian meditation instructor Pema Dudul) cross-referenced with classical Buddhist wisdom — from the Maranasati Sutta to the 8th-century dialogues between Guru Rinpoche and Lady Tsogyal. The goal is not just a checklist but a field-tested roadmap for finding your center when the ground gives way.

🔥 Top Points for Listeners

1. A grief attack is a full-body nervous system event — not just sadness. It mimics the physical process of dying: crushing chest pressure, dry mouth, cold sweats, gasping breath. The body believes it is dying because the mind believes it is dying.
2. The pain is real, but the permanence is an illusion. Like a phantom limb, the agony is 100% real, but the source is empty. The panic is not your identity — it is an impermanent weather pattern caused by attachment (raga) and aversion (dvesha).
3. Don’t feed the innate demon. The initial wave is unavoidable, but the secondary reaction — I’m going to die, this will never end, I can’t survive this — is optional.
4. Three anchors for the acute phase (from Guru Rinpoche):
   • Body: Drop your shoulders, unclench your hands. Short-circuit the biofeedback loop.
   • Speech: Stop talking. Rest like a mute. Cut off the verbal fuel.
   • Mind: Refuse to fabricate future storylines. Stay in the current millisecond.

1. One breath is enough. The Maranasati Sutta says the truly heedful person lives within the interval of a single in-breath or out-breath. You don’t have to survive the rest of your life without them — just this one breath. This plunges you into the “deathless” present, where time — and therefore grief — cannot exist.
2. Slow the breath to hack the mind. Deep, slow exhaling stimulates the vagus nerve, activating the parasympathetic nervous system and chemically signaling the fight-or-flight response to stand down.
3. You are not alone. Kisagotami’s story reveals that every house has known death. Your grief is not a unique curse — it is the shared burden of all humanity. This realization breaks the isolation.
4. A cloud never dies. Thich Nhat Hanh’s teaching: matter and energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed. You aren’t grieving your loved one’s destruction — you’re grieving their transformation.
5. Eat the poison. The peacock transmutes venom into radiant feathers. Acceptance rather than aversion transmutes your personal agony into deep universal compassion. The grief doesn’t disappear — it becomes purpose.
6. Ritual replaces helplessness with love in motion. Whether guiding words, gentle touch, or chanted mantra, devotional practices give the grieving person a focal point of supreme compassion — a final, beautiful, actionable gift to the dying.
7. Einstein’s comfort: The distinction between past, present, and future is a stubbornly persistent illusion. Your loved one is woven permanently into the fabric of the cosmos — and into your very being. The separation you feel is just the mind struggling to comprehend the scale of transformation.
8. The wave will pass. The connection remains. Keep breathing.

Synopsis

Dave Lang an Josephine Nolan opens today’s video podcast with a visceral thought experiment: you’re standing in aisle four of a grocery store, perfectly safe, deciding between bran and oats. Then an invisible 50-foot wave crashes over you. You can’t breathe, your heart hammers like a trapped bird, the floor drops away, your vision darkens, and primal terror swallows your mind. Josephine Nolan names it: a grief attack — one of the most staggering forces a human being can endure. There is no physical threat, only a memory or a sudden piercing realization that someone you love is gone, or will be soon.

The Mission
This deep dive examines the grief attack through a dual lens: modern palliative care insight (including Andrea Levine and Australian meditation instructor Pema Dudul) cross-referenced with classical Buddhist wisdom — from the Maranasati Sutta to the 8th-century dialogues between Guru Rinpoche and Lady Tsogyal. The goal is not just a checklist but a field-tested roadmap for finding your center when the ground gives way.

The Anatomy of a Grief Attack
Josephine explains how ancient texts mirror modern clinical definitions of panic attacks with flawless phenomenological observation. The Abhaya Sutta describes a person who “grieves, is tormented, weeps, beats their breast, and grows delirious” — a full-body nervous system collapse. The amygdala floods the body with adrenaline and cortisol; heart rate spikes, breath becomes shallow, pupils dilate — the body preps to fight a predator that doesn’t exist. Dave’s analogy: a broken smoke alarm going off at 3 a.m. when there’s no fire.

Guru Rinpoche’s “dissolving process” of dying maps exactly onto grief attack symptoms:

• Earth dissolving into water — feeling crushed by a mountain (chest pressure)
• Water dissolving into fire — mouth and nose dry up
• Fire dissolving into wind — body heat disappears, cold sweats, shivering
• Wind dissolving into consciousness — breath fails, gasping, rattling breaths

The mind believes it is dying, so the body dutifully acts as if it is dying.

Pema Dudul’s Breakthrough & the Five Poisons

Pema Dudul suffered severe panic disorder for four decades, believing his anxiety was intrinsic to his identity. Through a Dzogchen teaching from Dudjom Rinpoche, he realized these panicky mind states were not him — they were impermanent, empty. Josephine frames this through two of the five poisons: raga (attachment, desperate clinging to what we love) and dvesha (aversion, violent rejection of pain). The analogy: grief and anxiety are like a phantom limb — the pain is 100% real, but the source is an illusion.

The Innate Demon & Why Intellectualizing Fails

Dave pushes back: how does thinking “this is just raga and dvesha” help when you’re in sheer physical terror? Josephine agrees it’s too intellectual in the moment. The real value is preventing the secondary reaction. Guru Rinpoche’s “innate demon” is the voice that says: I’m going to die from this. This pain will never end. I’m going crazy. You start panicking about the panic. Knowing the state is empty stops you from building a dam of aversion that makes the floodwaters rise higher.

Lady Tsogyal’s Three-Part Anchor

Facing the imminent loss of her master, Lady Tsogyal — despite years of advanced practice — pleaded for a concise, easy-to-practice instruction. Guru Rinpoche’s “refined essence of oral instructions” breaks into three steps:

1. Body — “Rest free and relaxed as you feel comfortable.” When the body locks up, it sends a biofeedback loop confirming threat. Consciously dropping shoulders and unclenching hands short-circuits the loop.
2. Speech — “Stop speaking and rest like a mute.” We verbally rehearse our fears, speaking the panic into existence. Silence cuts off the verbal fuel, starving the fire of oxygen.
3. Mind — “Let the mind rest in its natural state, free and easy, without fabrication or fixation.” We fabricate future scenarios (the empty chair at Thanksgiving, the loneliness 10 years from now). Non-fabrication means refusing to write the script for tomorrow, staying with exactly what is happening in the current millisecond.

Not Numbing — Vibrantly Awake

A crucial clarification: this is not about becoming emotionally numb. Guru Rinpoche says the mind still “shimmers and flashes like haze in the heat of the sun.” You fully feel the blistering heat of the emotion but watch it shimmer without attaching a narrative.

Paced Breathing & the Vagus Nerve

Ondrea Levine, who worked in palliative care and faced her own cancer, noted that fear of death is fundamentally fear of lost control. Her tool: “Slow the breath down. In slowing it down, it calms the whole body.” The biology: slow, deep breathing (especially the exhale) stimulates the vagus nerve, activating the parasympathetic “rest and digest” system, flooding the body with acetylcholine and lowering heart rate. You use the body to hack the mind.

The Maranasati Sutta — The Deathless

The Buddha’s discourse on mindfulness of death. Monks claim they’re mindful if they hope to live a day, a night, a meal, four morsels of food. The Buddha says all are dwelling heedlessly. The truly heedful monk lives entirely within the interval of one in-breath or one out-breath. By shrinking existence to a single breath, you sever connection to past and future — and plunge into what the Buddha called the deathless. Inside the razor-thin present moment, there is no time, and therefore no grief (which is bound by time). It is the ultimate refuge from the panic of time.

Acute Protocol Summary

1. Recognize the crushing mountain as an empty weather pattern, a phantom limb.
2. Relax the body, stop speaking, rest like a mute.
3. Drop fabricated storylines.
4. Anchor entirely on a single in-breath and out-breath.

Kisagotami & the Mustard Seed

The classic story of the grieving mother who carried her dead child through the village begging for medicine. The Buddha asks her to bring mustard seed from a house that has never known death. Going door to door, she discovers every home has been touched by loss. Watching the city lights extinguish one by one, she realizes the universality of death — her grief is not a unique curse but the shared burden of all humanity. This breaks the isolation.

Thich Nhat Hanh — A Cloud Never Dies

Matter and energy cannot be destroyed — a cloud becomes rain, snow, ice. The notion of death as passing into absolute nothingness cannot be applied to reality. You aren’t grieving your loved one’s destruction; you’re grieving their transformation and your inability to interact with their new form.

The Peacock & the Poison

In Vajrayana Buddhism, Amitabha Buddha’s mount is the peacock — sacred because it eats venomous snakes and transmutes the poison into radiant tail feathers. The snakes represent raga and dvesha. This is not toxic positivity or romanticizing trauma. “Eating the poison” means acceptance rather than aversion — sitting with the venomous pain without running, letting it move through your system. Surviving that depth of sorrow without numbing it rewires empathy and transmutes personal loss into universal compassion. The grief doesn’t disappear; it becomes purpose.

Phowa for the West — Devotional Practices for the Dying

For those worried about a loved one who has passed — especially beloved pets — actionable devotional practices offer agency and comfort. Amitabha presides over Sukhavati, the “happy realm” or Land of Ultimate Bliss — an ideal environment for spiritual evolution, where even the wind through jeweled trees inspires mindfulness.

Phowa (consciousness transference) is traditionally a highly advanced yogic practice. Zasep Tulku Rinpoche offers a “phowa for the West”: simply talking to the dying softly and with conviction — “You know you are dying now. It is okay. Let it go. Go peacefully. Imagine you are going into the light.” You replace terror of the void with a comforting visualization of peace and light.

Animal Phowa

For dying pets, the core is creating a peaceful environment by suppressing your own grief in the room. Animals are biologically sensitive to our fear hormones; your panic distresses them. The practice includes “liberation by touch” — placing a blessed object (mantra wheel, written mantra) gently on the crown of the head, the ideal exit point for consciousness.

Mantra & Dharani

• Mantra — short, distilled essence: Om Ami Deva Hri (Amitabha’s heart mantra)
• Dharani — longer, encodes a full sutra’s power: the Ushnisha Vijaya Dharani (Rebirth Dharani), given by the Buddha to a dying god who foresaw seven lifetimes of suffering; chanting it eradicated his negative karma and ensured rebirth in a pure land.

The Secular Value of Ritual

Even stripped of religious dogma, these rituals provide immense value: they replace agonizing helplessness with a focal point of supreme compassion. You give the dying your absolute calm, focused attention, and intention — love in motion, a final actionable gift.

Einstein’s Letter — The Stubbornly Persistent Illusion

Josephine closes with Einstein’s 1955 letter to the widow of Michele Besso: “For people who truly understand physics, the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” Every atom is endlessly recycled. If time is an illusion and matter is eternal, your loved one is not entirely gone — they are woven permanently into the fabric of the cosmos and into your very being. The separation you feel is just the mind struggling to comprehend the scale of transformation. Maybe the grief attack isn’t an attack at all — maybe it’s the sudden, overwhelming realization of how deeply and permanently you are still connected.

CITATIONS: Episode Bibliography & Recommended Sources

• Connecting with Nature of Mind to Overcome Anxiety and Panic An Interview with Meditation Instructor Pema Düddul — Buddha Weekly Explores how viewing panic and difficult emotional states as impermanent, empty fluctuations of the mind allows them to self-liberate without becoming fixed personal identities.
• Dharma Hero! Becoming a Fearless Buddhist: Overcoming Five Fears Lessons from King Gesar and Buddhist Champions — Buddha Weekly Examines methods from Sutra and Tantric traditions (including Green Tara and Tonglen) to transform internal anxieties and the “five poisons” into courage and compassion.

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• Maranassati Sutta: Mindfulness of Death Pali Canon Discourse — Buddha Weekly The Buddha’s core teaching on acute vigilance, showing that true mindfulness of death is practiced within the immediate space of a single breath or swallowing a single morsel of food.
• What Buddha Actually Taught About “Rebirth” and Life After Death Analysis of the Yamaka Sutta — Buddha Weekly Clarifies the Buddhist concept of continuity of consciousness (mindstream) and the non-self (Anatta), explaining how liberation is found in releasing ego clinging.
• Gautama Buddha’s Life Example: Impermanence and Facing Mortality Historical Narrative & Teachings — Buddha Weekly How the Buddha’s responses to threats and his final days demonstrate equanimity, purified karma, and boundless compassion in the face of death.

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• Padmasambhava’s Condensed Teaching for the Time of Death As Requested by Lady Tsogyal — Buddha Weekly Guru Rinpoche’s distilled instructions on non-fabrication: allowing the body to rest comfortably, speech to rest like a mute, and the mind to rest in its unaltered, luminous state.
• Buddha on Dharma Prayer Wheels & Guru Rinpoche’s Instructions Teachings on Purification and Bodhichitta — Buddha Weekly How spinning prayer wheels acts as an accessible physical and mental practice to purify negative karma and generate compassion amidst daily turmoil.

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• Amitabha: Buddha of the Western Pureland Sukhavati The 48 Vows, Sadhanas, Mantras, Dharani, and Sutra Guide — Buddha Weekly Comprehensive guide to the magnetizing power of the Lotus Family, detail-oriented practices for purifying karma, and establishing rebirth in Sukhavati.
• Buddha’s 10 Protections from Dangers & Amituofo Chanting Devotional Practice Guide & Video Teaching — Buddha Weekly / YouTube Outlines the benefits of single-pointed chanting of Amitabha’s name (Amituofo), offering mental tranquility, karma purification, and celestial protection in the present moment.
• Ushnisha Vijaya Dharani: Overcoming Suffering in the Six Realms Scriptural History and Sanskrit Text — Buddha Weekly Examines the sacred chant used to purify negative karma and liberate beings from emotional rigidity across the six psychological realms of suffering.

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• Amitabha Phowa (Powa) Teaching & Guided Meditation Teaching by Ven. Zasep Tulku Rinpoche — Video Guide Step-by-step instructions on the Vajrayana technique of transferring consciousness to Amitabha’s Pure Land, providing longevity in life and fearlessness at death.
• Animal Phowa: Helping Pets Transition to Sukhavati Practices for Domestic Animals & Pets — Video Guide Explores how to assist dying pets through consciousness transference, chanting Om Mani Padme Hum, placing sacred texts on the crown, and dedicating merit during the 49-day bardo.

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• “Learning How to Die” and End-of-Life Palliative Care Insights from Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama — Buddha Weekly A compassionate guide for caregivers and practitioners on approaching death as a natural continuation rather than an absolute end.
• Why Contemplating Death Can Help You Live Happier 5 Ways Meditation on Mortality Changes Life — Buddha Weekly How reflecting on impermanence dissolves trivial anxieties, restores priority to what matters, and fosters joy in the present moment.
• Interview with Zasep Tulku Rinpoche (Part 3) Deity Yoga, Death Meditation, and Adapting Rituals — Buddha Weekly Discusses finding a mentor, understanding wrathful Yidams like Yamantaka, and adapting traditional rituals like Phowa for modern Western contexts.

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• The Dream of Rebirth: Reincarnation and Modern Consciousness Exploring Mindstream Continuity and Quantum Perspectives — Buddha Weekly Reconciles traditional rebirth principles with modern scientific inquiry into consciousness and energy preservation.
• Destroyer of Death Yamantaka: Vajrabhairava Practices The Wrathful Manifestation of Manjushri — Buddha Weekly Demystifies wrathful tantric imagery, explaining how extreme wrathful energy is used in Highest Yoga Tantra to conquer ego-clinging and fear.

TRANSCRIPT

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Dave Lang: So imagine you are

standing right in the middle of a

grocery

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Dave Lang: store.

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Josephine Nolan: Okay.

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Dave Lang: You are completely safe.

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Josephine Nolan: Yeah.

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Dave Lang: You’re holding a box of

cereal in aisle four, and you’re

just,

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Dave Lang: you know, deciding

between bran and oats.

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Josephine Nolan: Just a normal day.

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Dave Lang: Exactly.

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Dave Lang: Everything around you is

painfully, numbingly ordinary.

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Dave Lang: The fluorescent lights

are buzzing overhead.

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Josephine Nolan: Right.

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Dave Lang: Someone is pushing a

squeaky cart a few feet away.

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Dave Lang: And then out of

absolutely nowhere, this invisible

50-foot wave

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Dave Lang: just crashes directly

over your head.

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Josephine Nolan: Yeah, it’s an

absolute ambush on your nervous

system.

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Dave Lang: You literally can’t

breathe.

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Dave Lang: Your heart starts

hammering violently against your

ribs, almost

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Dave Lang: like a trapped bird.

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Josephine Nolan: And your vision

starts to go.

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Dave Lang: Right.

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Dave Lang: The linoleum floor feels

like it’s suddenly dropping away

into

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Dave Lang: this chasm, and the edges

of your vision go totally dark.

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Dave Lang: Your mind just goes

completely blank, swallowed by sheer

primal

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Dave Lang: terror.

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Josephine Nolan: And the craziest

part is there is no physical threat.

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Dave Lang: None at all.

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Dave Lang: I mean, there’s no fire,

no falling debris, there’s no hot

stove

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Dave Lang: you’ve accidentally

touched.

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Dave Lang: It is just a memory.

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Dave Lang: Or a sudden piercing

realization that someone you love is

entirely

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Dave Lang: gone.

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Dave Lang: Or, you know, that they

are going to be gone soon.

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Josephine Nolan: That is the

defining architecture of what we

call a

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Josephine Nolan: grief attack.

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Josephine Nolan: And honestly, it is

one of the most staggering forces

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Josephine Nolan: a human being can

endure.

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Dave Lang: And that is exactly our

mission for you today in this deep

dive.

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Nadine: This video was made possible

through the generosity of our donor,

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Nadine: patrons, and supporting

members.

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Nadine: Thank you to our amazing

supporters.

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Dave Lang: Usually when we talk

about a physical injury, there’s a

clear

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Dave Lang: cause and effect.

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Dave Lang: Yeah.

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Dave Lang: Right?

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Dave Lang: An expectation of

biological precision.

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Josephine Nolan: Right, like

touching that hot stove.

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Dave Lang: Exactly.

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Dave Lang: You touch a hot stove,

the heat damages the tissue, your

brain

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Dave Lang: receives the signal, and

you pull your hand back.

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Dave Lang: I mean, the pain makes

logical sense.

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Speaker 2: That’s functional.

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Dave Lang: But a grief attack

bridges this terrifying gap between

deep

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Dave Lang: emotional sorrow and

intense primal physical panic.

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Josephine Nolan: Which is exactly

why modern psychology often

struggles

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Josephine Nolan: to treat it in the

moment.

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Dave Lang: Yeah, why is that?

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Josephine Nolan: Well, when you are

standing in aisle four, completely

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Josephine Nolan: hijacked by your

own biology, you cannot simply

reason

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Josephine Nolan: your way out of it.

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Josephine Nolan: I mean, the logical

centers of your brain have basically

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Josephine Nolan: been taken offline.

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Dave Lang: Wow.

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Dave Lang: Which is why our source

material today is so incredibly

vital.

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Dave Lang: We are pulling from a

massive stack of research, looking

at

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Dave Lang: this phenomenon through a

dual lens.

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Josephine Nolan: Right.

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Josephine Nolan: We’ve got some

amazing modern insights.

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Dave Lang: We do.

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Dave Lang: On one side, we have

insights from modern palliative care

experts,

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Dave Lang: uh, people like Andrea

Levine, who spent her life working

intimately

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Dave Lang: with the dying and those

left behind.

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Josephine Nolan: And we also have

the lived personal experience of

Australian

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Josephine Nolan: meditation

instructor Pema Dudul.

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Dave Lang: Right.

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Dave Lang: And on the other side, we

are cross-referencing all of that

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Dave Lang: modern clinical insight

with classical Buddhist wisdom.

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Josephine Nolan: Which is just a

fascinating overlap.

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Dave Lang: It’s incredible.

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Dave Lang: We are going to look at

everything from the ancient texts of

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Dave Lang: the Maranasati Sutta to

the epic historical dialogues

between

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Dave Lang: the great 8th-century

master Guru Rimpoche and his most

accomplished

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Dave Lang: student, Lady Tsogyal.

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Josephine Nolan: Because we aren’t

just looking at a checklist of what

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Josephine Nolan: to do during a

grief attack.

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Dave Lang: No, definitely not.

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Josephine Nolan: We are looking at

why bridging clinical psychology

with

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Josephine Nolan: this ancient

spiritual technology gives you what

is arguably

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Josephine Nolan: the ultimate

field-tested roadmap for finding

your center

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Josephine Nolan: when the ground

gives way beneath you.

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Dave Lang: Okay, let’s unpack this.

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Dave Lang: Because before we can

even begin to talk about tactical

management,

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Dave Lang: we have to look under the

hood.

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Josephine Nolan: We have to

understand the mechanics.

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Dave Lang: Exactly.

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Dave Lang: We have to understand

what is physically and mentally

happening

135

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Dave Lang: to you when that

invisible wave hits in the grocery

store.

136

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Dave Lang: Because it isn’t just,

you know, feeling sad.

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Dave Lang: Not at all.

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Dave Lang: What is the actual

anatomy of this panic?

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Josephine Nolan: Well, to really

grasp that, I want to look at how

ancient

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Josephine Nolan: texts describe the

physical manifestation of grief.

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Josephine Nolan: And what’s

fascinating here is how closely

their ancient

143

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Josephine Nolan: descriptions mirror

our strictest modern clinical

definitions

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Josephine Nolan: of a panic attack.

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Dave Lang: Wait, really?

148

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Josephine Nolan: Yeah.

149

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Josephine Nolan: I mean, they didn’t

have functional MRI machines, but

150

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Josephine Nolan: their

phenomenological observation was

just flawless.

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Dave Lang: I was reading through the

stack, and there’s a reference to

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Dave Lang: the Abhaya Sutta, right?

155

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Josephine Nolan: Yes.

156

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Josephine Nolan: The discourse on

fearlessness.

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Dave Lang: Right.

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Dave Lang: Which translates to the

discourse on fearlessness.

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Dave Lang: And it describes a person

who is suddenly confronted with deep

161

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Dave Lang: loss or the acute fear of

death.

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Josephine Nolan: And how did it

describe the reaction?

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Dave Lang:It says this person

grieves, they’re tormented, they

weep,

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Dave Lang: they beat their breast,

and they grow delirious.

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Josephine Nolan: Delirious.

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Dave Lang: Yeah.

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Dave Lang: When I read that, I

thought, man, that is a full-body

nervous

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Dave Lang: system collapse.

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Josephine Nolan: Yeah.

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Dave Lang: That is delirium.

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Josephine Nolan: It absolutely is.

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Josephine Nolan: What they are

describing is the sympathetic

nervous system

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Josephine Nolan: being thrown

violently into fight or flight mode.

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Dave Lang:Okay, so what’s

happening in the brain there?

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Josephine Nolan: Well, the amygdala,

which is the fear center of the

brain,

185

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Josephine Nolan: sounds an absolute

alarm.

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Josephine Nolan: It just floods the

body with adrenaline and cortisol.

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Dave Lang: The stress hormones.

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Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

191

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Josephine Nolan: The heart rate

spikes to pump blood to the muscles,

the

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Josephine Nolan: breath becomes

shallow and rapid to take in oxygen,

the

193

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Josephine Nolan: pupils dilate.

194

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Josephine Nolan: I mean, the body is

entirely prepped to physically fight

195

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Josephine Nolan: a predator or run

for its life.

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Dave Lang: But there is no predator.

199

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Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

200

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Josephine Nolan: There is nowhere to

run from a memory.

201

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Josephine Nolan: You are trapped

inside a biological defense

mechanism

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Josephine Nolan: that is just

completely misfiring.

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Dave Lang: It’s like a broken smoke

alarm going off at three in the

morning

205

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Dave Lang: when there’s no fire.

207

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Josephine Nolan: That’s a perfect

analogy.

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Dave Lang: I mean, the noise is

deafening, the urgency is real, but

the

210

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Dave Lang: threat isn’t physical.

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Dave Lang: And our sources bring in

this incredible historical framework

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Dave Lang: from Guru Rinpoche to

explain this.

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Josephine Nolan: Yes, Guru Rinpoche.

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Dave Lang: For those who aren’t

familiar, who exactly was he?

218

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Josephine Nolan: So Guru Rinpoche,

also known as Padmasambhava, is a

legendary

219

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Josephine Nolan: figure who

essentially brought tantric Buddhism

to Tibet

220

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Josephine Nolan: in the eighth

century.

222

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Nadine: Right.

224

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Josephine Nolan: He was a master of

understanding the deepest, most

subtle

225

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Josephine Nolan: layers of human

consciousness and the dying process.

227

00:06:12,079 –> 00:06:14,800

Dave Lang:And he describes the

physical process of dying, which he

calls

228

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Dave Lang: the dissolving process.

230

00:06:16,399 –> 00:06:17,680

Josephine Nolan: The dissolution of

the elements, yes.

232

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Dave Lang: But when you look at the

specific physical symptoms he lists

233

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Dave Lang: for the body shutting

down, it sounds exactly like what

someone

234

00:06:24,240 –> 00:06:26,319

Dave Lang: experiences during a

massive grief attack.

236

00:06:26,879 –> 00:06:30,399

Josephine Nolan: It is a profound

step-by-step framework of the body’s

237

00:06:30,399 –> 00:06:30,800

Josephine Nolan: systems collapsing.

239

00:06:31,519 –> 00:06:34,399

Dave Lang: Let’s walk through it

because the parallels are just wild

to

240

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Dave Lang: me.

241

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Dave Lang: He starts by describing

the earth element dissolving into

water.

242

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Dave Lang: Right.

243

00:06:38,319 –> 00:06:41,920

Dave Lang: The physical sensation he

attaches to that is the feeling of

244

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Dave Lang: being pressed down by a

huge crushing mountain.

246

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Josephine Nolan: And anyone who has

had a severe panic attack knows that

247

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Josephine Nolan: exact somatic

symptom.

248

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Josephine Nolan: It is a feeling of

immense crushing weight on the

chest,

249

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Josephine Nolan: as if the sternum

is literally being flattened.

251

00:06:56,000 –> 00:06:56,000

Dave Lang: Right.

252

00:06:56,000 –> 00:06:57,600

Dave Lang: You feel like you can’t

expand your lungs.

253

00:06:57,600 –> 00:07:02,240

Dave Lang: Then he says water

dissolves into fire, and the symptom

for

254

00:07:02,240 –> 00:07:04,800

Dave Lang: that is your mouth and

nose completely drying up.

256

00:07:05,199 –> 00:07:08,720

Josephine Nolan: Which is, again, a

classic textbook symptom of acute

anxiety.

258

00:07:09,519 –> 00:07:11,680

Dave Lang: Your salivary glands just

instantly shut down.

260

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Josephine Nolan: Because the

sympathetic nervous system diverts

all energy

261

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Josephine Nolan: away from digestion

and non-essential functions, it’s

262

00:07:17,439 –> 00:07:18,160

Josephine Nolan: prepping you to

run.

264

00:07:18,639 –> 00:07:18,639

Dave Lang: Wow.

265

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Dave Lang: Then fire dissolves into

wind.

266

00:07:20,560 –> 00:07:23,199

Dave Lang: The symptom, your body

heat disappears.

268

00:07:23,920 –> 00:07:26,319

Josephine Nolan: You get the cold

sweats, the violent shivering, that

clammy,

269

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Josephine Nolan: ice-cold feeling,

even if you are standing in a

perfectly

270

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Josephine Nolan: heated room.

272

00:07:30,720 –> 00:07:33,920

Dave Lang: And finally, wind

dissolves into consciousness, the

breath fails,

273

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Dave Lang: you gasp, you take these

rattling, shallow, desperate

breaths.

275

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Josephine Nolan: Right, because your

diaphragm is entirely locked up in

276

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Josephine Nolan: a state of muscular

panic.

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Dave Lang: So it’s identical.

280

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Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

281

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Josephine Nolan: What is happening

in a grief attack is that the mind’s

282

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Josephine Nolan: sheer terror at the

concept of absolute loss, either the

283

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Josephine Nolan: loss of a loved one

or the contemplation of your own

mortality,

284

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Josephine Nolan: triggers a

physiological cascade that directly

mimics

285

00:07:58,879 –> 00:08:00,480

Josephine Nolan: the actual shutting

down the body.

287

00:08:01,040 –> 00:08:01,360

Dave Lang: That is terrifying.

289

00:08:02,079 –> 00:08:04,720

Josephine Nolan: The mind

subjectively believes it is dying,

and so the

290

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Josephine Nolan: body dutifully acts

as if it is dying.

292

00:08:07,759 –> 00:08:08,879

Dave Lang: Which brings up a big

question.

293

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Dave Lang: If your body is reacting

this violently, how do you convince

294

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Dave Lang: it that you aren’t

actually dying?

296

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Speaker 2: That’s the challenge.

298

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Dave Lang: I was really struck by

the story in our sources of Pema

Dudul.

299

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Dave Lang: He’s an Australian

meditation instructor.

300

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Dave Lang: And the text says he

suffered from severe, debilitating,

generalized

301

00:08:25,120 –> 00:08:28,959

Dave Lang: anxiety disorder and

panic disorder for four decades.

302

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Dave Lang: Forty years.

303

00:08:30,000 –> 00:08:33,360

Dave Lang: That isn’t just being

slightly nervous before a public

speech.

304

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Dave Lang: That is chronic, severe,

mountain crushing, dry mouth,

gasping

305

00:08:38,399 –> 00:08:40,240

Dave Lang: panic on a regular basis.

307

00:08:40,879 –> 00:08:40,879

Josephine Nolan: Right.

308

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Josephine Nolan: And for decades he

sought out traditional Western

psychiatric

309

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Josephine Nolan: help.

310

00:08:44,320 –> 00:08:46,879

Josephine Nolan: He tried an array

of medications, and he noted that

none

311

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Josephine Nolan: of it fundamentally

uprooted the issue for him.

313

00:08:49,360 –> 00:08:50,000

Dave Lang: So what did he do?

315

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Josephine Nolan: Well, he had come

to a very dangerous psychological

conclusion.

316

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Josephine Nolan: He believed that

his anxiety and his panic were

intrinsic,

317

00:08:57,519 –> 00:08:59,840

Josephine Nolan: permanent parts of

his core identity.

318

00:08:59,840 –> 00:09:02,159

Josephine Nolan: He thought, you

know, this is just who I am.

320

00:09:02,639 –> 00:09:03,279

Dave Lang: It became his

personality.

322

00:09:04,080 –> 00:09:04,080

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

324

00:09:04,799 –> 00:09:07,919

Dave Lang: But then he encountered a

specific teaching from a Tibetan

master,

325

00:09:07,919 –> 00:09:08,320

Dave Lang: Dudjom Rinpoche.

326

00:09:08,320 –> 00:09:11,919

Dave Lang: It’s a teaching from the

Dzogchen tradition.

328

00:09:12,399 –> 00:09:13,039

Josephine Nolan: Dzogchen, yes.

330

00:09:13,279 –> 00:09:15,200

Dave Lang: And before we get into

what he realized, we should probably

331

00:09:15,200 –> 00:09:16,639

Dave Lang: clarify what Dzogchen

actually is.

333

00:09:16,960 –> 00:09:16,960

Josephine Nolan: Sure.

334

00:09:16,960 –> 00:09:20,159

Josephine Nolan: Dzogchen translates

roughly to the great perfection.

335

00:09:20,159 –> 00:09:24,240

Josephine Nolan: It is considered

the highest and most direct path in

Tibetan

336

00:09:24,240 –> 00:09:24,720

Josephine Nolan: Buddhism.

338

00:09:25,759 –> 00:09:26,960

Dave Lang: Okay, so what’s the core

idea?

340

00:09:27,600 –> 00:09:30,159

Josephine Nolan: The core premise of

Dzogchen isn’t about building up a

341

00:09:30,159 –> 00:09:32,159

Josephine Nolan: perfect meditative

state through intense effort.

342

00:09:32,159 –> 00:09:35,600

Josephine Nolan: It’s about relaxing

completely to recognize the natural

343

00:09:35,600 –> 00:09:37,600

Josephine Nolan: primordial state of

your own mind.

345

00:09:38,080 –> 00:09:38,799

Dave Lang: Which is supposed to be

what?

347

00:09:39,200 –> 00:09:41,679

Josephine Nolan: It is said to be

naturally pure, expansive, and

aware,

348

00:09:41,679 –> 00:09:42,879

Josephine Nolan: like a clear sky.

350

00:09:43,600 –> 00:09:48,000

Dave Lang: And when Pema Dudal

applied this Dzogchen perspective to

his

351

00:09:48,000 –> 00:09:50,960

Dave Lang: own 40-year struggle, he

had a massive breakthrough.

352

00:09:50,960 –> 00:09:54,159

Dave Lang: He realized that these

panicky mind states, these

suffocating

353

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Dave Lang: waves of grief and

terror, were not an inherent part of

his

354

00:09:58,320 –> 00:09:58,320

Dave Lang:identity.

356

00:09:58,960 –> 00:09:59,440

Josephine Nolan: They weren’t him.

358

00:10:00,000 –> 00:10:00,000

Dave Lang: Right.

359

00:10:00,000 –> 00:10:01,200

Dave Lang: They were entirely

impermanent.

360

00:10:01,200 –> 00:10:04,240

Dave Lang: In Buddhist terminology,

they were empty.

362

00:10:05,039 –> 00:10:07,840

Josephine Nolan: To deeply

understand how radical that

realization is,

363

00:10:07,840 –> 00:10:09,840

Josephine Nolan: we need to look at

it through the framework of the five

364

00:10:09,840 –> 00:10:10,960

Josephine Nolan: poisons in

Buddhism.

366

00:10:11,759 –> 00:10:12,159

Dave Lang: The five poisons.

368

00:10:12,799 –> 00:10:12,799

Josephine Nolan: Yeah.

369

00:10:12,799 –> 00:10:15,440

Josephine Nolan: These poisons are

essentially the root cognitive

distortions

370

00:10:15,440 –> 00:10:17,840

Josephine Nolan: that cause all of

our mental and emotional suffering.

371

00:10:17,840 –> 00:10:22,000

Josephine Nolan: In the context of a

devastating grief attack, we’re

primarily

372

00:10:22,000 –> 00:10:25,519

Josephine Nolan: dealing with two of

these poisons, which are raga and

373

00:10:25,519 –> 00:10:25,519

Josephine Nolan:dvesha.

375

00:10:26,399 –> 00:10:27,200

Dave Lang: Okay, let’s break those

down.

376

00:10:27,200 –> 00:10:28,399

Dave Lang: What exactly is raga?

378

00:10:29,120 –> 00:10:32,320

Josephine Nolan: Raga translates to

attachment or grasping, but it’s not

379

00:10:32,320 –> 00:10:33,679

Josephine Nolan: just, you know, a

mild fondness.

381

00:10:34,399 –> 00:10:34,799

Dave Lang: Right, it’s deeper.

383

00:10:35,360 –> 00:10:37,840

Josephine Nolan: It is our deep,

clinging, desperate hold on the

things

384

00:10:37,840 –> 00:10:38,320

Josephine Nolan: we love.

385

00:10:38,320 –> 00:10:41,200

Josephine Nolan: Our partners, our

parents, our children, our pets, our

386

00:10:41,200 –> 00:10:42,159

Josephine Nolan: health, our status

quo.

388

00:10:42,720 –> 00:10:43,840

Dave Lang: It’s holding on for dear

life.

390

00:10:44,240 –> 00:10:44,240

Josephine Nolan: Yes.

391

00:10:44,240 –> 00:10:46,399

Josephine Nolan: It is the absolute

terror of losing them.

392

00:10:46,399 –> 00:10:48,720

Josephine Nolan: We hold on so

tightly that our knuckles turn

white.

393

00:10:48,720 –> 00:10:49,360

Josephine Nolan: Dvesha.

395

00:10:50,399 –> 00:10:51,200

Dave Lang: Dvesha is aversion.

396

00:10:51,200 –> 00:10:55,200

Dave Lang: It is the intense,

reflective, violent rejection of

pain and

397

00:10:55,200 –> 00:10:55,360

Dave Lang: suffering.

399

00:10:56,000 –> 00:10:56,799

Josephine Nolan: So pushing away.

401

00:10:57,360 –> 00:10:57,360

Dave Lang: Exactly.

402

00:10:57,360 –> 00:11:02,559

Dave Lang: When the reality of a

profound loss actually hits us, our

mind

403

00:11:02,559 –> 00:11:04,159

Dave Lang: violently rejects the

data.

404

00:11:04,159 –> 00:11:05,759

Dave Lang: We say, no, absolutely

not.

405

00:11:05,759 –> 00:11:06,639

Dave Lang: This cannot be happening.

406

00:11:06,639 –> 00:11:08,080

Dave Lang: I refuse to feel this

pain.

408

00:11:08,399 –> 00:11:09,120

Speaker 2: I’ve definitely felt

that.

410

00:11:09,519 –> 00:11:12,960

Dave Lang: That aversion, that

desperate, flailing attempt to push

the

411

00:11:12,960 –> 00:11:16,159

Dave Lang: reality of the pain away,

acts like gasoline on a fire.

412

00:11:16,159 –> 00:11:21,440

Dave Lang: It takes the natural

human sorrow of loss and turns it

into

413

00:11:21,440 –> 00:11:23,039

Dave Lang: full-blown systemic

panic.

415

00:11:23,840 –> 00:11:26,559

Josephine Nolan: So if we look at

Pema Dudul’s breakthrough, I want to

416

00:11:26,559 –> 00:11:27,200

Josephine Nolan: use an analogy

here.

418

00:11:27,600 –> 00:11:27,919

Dave Lang: Go for it.

420

00:11:28,240 –> 00:11:30,720

Josephine Nolan: We tend to treat

our grief and our anxiety like a

permanent

421

00:11:30,720 –> 00:11:31,120

Josephine Nolan: tattoo.

422

00:11:31,120 –> 00:11:34,799

Josephine Nolan: We think, I am a

panic person, I’m forever broken by

this

423

00:11:34,799 –> 00:11:35,039

Josephine Nolan: loss.

424

00:11:35,039 –> 00:11:36,399

Josephine Nolan: We identify with

it.

426

00:11:36,799 –> 00:11:36,799

Dave Lang: Right.

427

00:11:36,799 –> 00:11:38,000

Dave Lang: It becomes who we are.

429

00:11:38,399 –> 00:11:40,559

Josephine Nolan: But a better

analogy might be a phantom limb.

430

00:11:40,559 –> 00:11:43,919

Josephine Nolan: You know how

amputees will feel excruciating

burning pain

431

00:11:43,919 –> 00:11:46,559

Josephine Nolan: in an arm or a leg

that is no longer physically there.

433

00:11:47,120 –> 00:11:48,960

Dave Lang: Yes, neuroplasticity gone

awry.

434

00:11:48,960 –> 00:11:52,399

Dave Lang: The brain is sending

distress signals to a limb that

doesn’t

435

00:11:52,399 –> 00:11:52,720

Dave Lang: exist.

437

00:11:53,279 –> 00:11:53,279

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

438

00:11:53,279 –> 00:11:55,600

Josephine Nolan: The pain they feel

is 100% real.

440

00:11:56,080 –> 00:11:56,080

Dave Lang: Right.

441

00:11:56,080 –> 00:11:57,440

Dave Lang: The agony is real.

442

00:11:57,440 –> 00:11:59,600

Dave Lang: But the source of the

pain is an illusion.

443

00:11:59,600 –> 00:12:00,559

Dave Lang: It’s empty.

444

00:12:00,559 –> 00:12:05,759

Dave Lang: Pema Dudul realized his

panic was like that phantom limb.

446

00:12:06,240 –> 00:12:06,720

Speaker 2: Oh, that’s brilliant.

448

00:12:07,200 –> 00:12:10,159

Dave Lang: The adrenaline was real,

the gasping breath was real, but the

449

00:12:10,159 –> 00:12:12,799

Dave Lang: absolute permanence he

attached to it was an illusion.

450

00:12:12,799 –> 00:12:16,000

Dave Lang: It was an impermanent

reaction causedby raga and dvesha.

451

00:12:16,000 –> 00:12:17,759

Dave Lang: It wasn’t his actual

identity.

453

00:12:18,399 –> 00:12:21,039

Josephine Nolan: That is a brilliant

way to frame the concept of

emptiness.

454

00:12:21,039 –> 00:12:25,519

Josephine Nolan: The emotion, the

somatic reality is incredibly

intense.

455

00:12:25,519 –> 00:12:28,480

Josephine Nolan: I mean, the smoke

alarm is blaring, but there is no

actual

456

00:12:28,480 –> 00:12:30,799

Josephine Nolan: fire burning down

the house of your core being.

458

00:12:31,519 –> 00:12:33,919

Dave Lang: Okay, but I have to push

back here on behalf of you, the

listener.

460

00:12:34,480 –> 00:12:34,720

Josephine Nolan: Fair enough.

462

00:12:35,279 –> 00:12:38,480

Dave Lang: Especially if you have

ever been in the dead center of a

grief

463

00:12:38,480 –> 00:12:38,799

Dave Lang: attack.

464

00:12:38,799 –> 00:12:42,720

Dave Lang: Because when you are in

aisle four and the floor is dropping

465

00:12:42,720 –> 00:12:45,120

Dave Lang: out and you literally

feel like you are dying.

467

00:12:45,759 –> 00:12:45,759

Josephine Nolan: Yeah.

469

00:12:46,480 –> 00:12:48,879

Dave Lang: How does standing there

thinking, oh, this is just my

attachment,

470

00:12:48,879 –> 00:12:52,480

Dave Lang: this is just raga and

dvesha , this is just a phantom

limb,

471

00:12:52,480 –> 00:12:53,759

Dave Lang: how does that actually

help you?

473

00:12:53,919 –> 00:12:55,440

Josephine Nolan:It doesn’t sound

very helpful in the moment.

475

00:12:55,919 –> 00:12:58,399

Dave Lang: It feels incredibly

intellectual for a moment of sheer

blinding

476

00:12:58,399 –> 00:12:59,440

Dave Lang: physical terror.

478

00:12:59,840 –> 00:13:00,799

Josephine Nolan:You’re completely

right.

479

00:13:00,799 –> 00:13:02,159

Josephine Nolan: It is entirely too

intellectual.

480

00:13:02,159 –> 00:13:05,840

Josephine Nolan: If you try to

philosophize your way out of a panic

attack

481

00:13:05,840 –> 00:13:09,360

Josephine Nolan: while your amygdala

is firing on all cylinders, you are

482

00:13:09,360 –> 00:13:09,840

Josephine Nolan: going to fail.

484

00:13:10,399 –> 00:13:11,279

Dave Lang: You can’t think your way

out of it.

486

00:13:11,679 –> 00:13:11,679

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

487

00:13:11,679 –> 00:13:15,440

Josephine Nolan: But what’s

fascinating here is that recognizing

the empty

488

00:13:15,440 –> 00:13:19,440

Josephine Nolan: nature of the panic

isn’t about intellectualizing the

489

00:13:19,440 –> 00:13:20,720

Josephine Nolan: emotion away in the

moment.

490

00:13:20,720 –> 00:13:23,679

Josephine Nolan: It is about

preventing the secondary reaction.

492

00:13:24,080 –> 00:13:25,919

Dave Lang:The secondary reaction,

what do you mean by that?

494

00:13:26,320 –> 00:13:28,240

Josephine Nolan: Guru Rinpoche warns

about this explicitly.

495

00:13:28,240 –> 00:13:30,720

Josephine Nolan: He talks about

something he calls the innate demon.

497

00:13:31,440 –> 00:13:32,000

Dave Lang: The innate demon.

498

00:13:32,000 –> 00:13:33,039

Dave Lang: That sounds intense.

500

00:13:33,919 –> 00:13:36,879

Josephine Nolan: Now, in this

psychological context, the innate

demon isn’t

501

00:13:36,879 –> 00:13:38,399

Josephine Nolan: a literal monster

with horns.

502

00:13:38,399 –> 00:13:42,480

Josephine Nolan: It is our own

deeply ingrained tendency for doubt,

hesitation,

503

00:13:42,480 –> 00:13:44,240

Josephine Nolan: and catastrophic

thinking.

505

00:13:44,799 –> 00:13:44,799

Speaker 2: Okay.

507

00:13:45,279 –> 00:13:47,919

Josephine Nolan: When the wave of

grief hits you in the grocery store,

508

00:13:47,919 –> 00:13:50,799

Josephine Nolan: the primary

experience is the sheer shock of the

sorrow

509

00:13:50,799 –> 00:13:52,639

Josephine Nolan: and the biological

adrenaline dump.

510

00:13:52,639 –> 00:13:53,279

Josephine Nolan: That is

unavoidable.

512

00:13:54,000 –> 00:13:54,000

Dave Lang: Right.

513

00:13:54,000 –> 00:13:54,720

Dave Lang: The wave is crashing.

515

00:13:55,440 –> 00:13:58,159

Josephine Nolan: But the innate

demon is the voice in your head that

immediately

516

00:13:58,159 –> 00:14:01,600

Josephine Nolan: wakes up and says,

I am going to die from this.

517

00:14:01,600 –> 00:14:02,799

Josephine Nolan: I am having a heart

attack.

518

00:14:02,799 –> 00:14:04,480

Josephine Nolan: This pain will

never end.

519

00:14:04,480 –> 00:14:05,759

Josephine Nolan: I am going crazy.

520

00:14:05,759 –> 00:14:07,440

Josephine Nolan: I cannot survive

this feeling.

522

00:14:08,000 –> 00:14:08,000

Dave Lang: Ah.

523

00:14:08,000 –> 00:14:10,240

Dave Lang: So you start panicking

about the panic.

524

00:14:10,240 –> 00:14:12,080

Dave Lang: You are grieving the fact

that you were grieved.

526

00:14:12,720 –> 00:14:12,720

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

527

00:14:12,720 –> 00:14:13,919

Josephine Nolan: You are feeding the

demon.

529

00:14:14,480 –> 00:14:15,039

Dave Lang: Okay, I see.

531

00:14:15,440 –> 00:14:18,080

Josephine Nolan: Knowing that the

state is empty and impermanent

doesn’t

532

00:14:18,080 –> 00:14:21,679

Josephine Nolan: stop the initial

wave from hitting you, but it stops

you

533

00:14:21,679 –> 00:14:25,519

Josephine Nolan: from building a

massive concrete dam to try and hold

the

534

00:14:25,519 –> 00:14:26,080

Josephine Nolan: wave back.

536

00:14:26,639 –> 00:14:28,080

Dave Lang: Because what happens when

you built the dam?

538

00:14:28,720 –> 00:14:30,960

Josephine Nolan: Well, when you

build a dam of aversion, the

floodwaters

539

00:14:30,960 –> 00:14:34,799

Josephine Nolan: of panic just rise

higher and higher until they drown

540

00:14:34,799 –> 00:14:34,799

Josephine Nolan:you.

541

00:14:34,799 –> 00:14:37,519

Josephine Nolan: If you know it’s a

phantom limb, if you know it’s an

empty

542

00:14:37,519 –> 00:14:40,720

Josephine Nolan: weather pattern,

you let the wave crash over you and

wash

543

00:14:40,720 –> 00:14:43,840

Josephine Nolan: past you without

adding the storyline that you are

going

544

00:14:43,840 –> 00:14:44,000

Josephine Nolan: to drown.

546

00:14:44,320 –> 00:14:46,240

Dave Lang:Okay, that makes deep

intuitive sense.

547

00:14:46,240 –> 00:14:49,840

Dave Lang: But letting a 50-foot

wave crash over you requires you to

be

548

00:14:49,840 –> 00:14:50,639

Dave Lang: tethered to something.

550

00:14:51,120 –> 00:14:51,600

Josephine Nolan: You need an anchor.

552

00:14:52,240 –> 00:14:52,240

Dave Lang: Right.

553

00:14:52,240 –> 00:14:55,600

Dave Lang: If the wave hits and we

conceptually understand it’s

impermanent,

554

00:14:55,600 –> 00:15:00,080

Dave Lang: how do we physically and

mentally drop an anchor right then

555

00:15:00,080 –> 00:15:00,240

Dave Lang: and there?

557

00:15:00,720 –> 00:15:02,720

Josephine Nolan: This is exactly

where we transition from the

high-level

558

00:15:02,720 –> 00:15:06,320

Josephine Nolan: theory of panic

into the immediate tactical

on-the-ground

559

00:15:06,320 –> 00:15:07,120

Josephine Nolan: response.

561

00:15:07,759 –> 00:15:07,919

Dave Lang: The toolkit.

563

00:15:08,639 –> 00:15:08,639

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

564

00:15:08,639 –> 00:15:12,320

Josephine Nolan: And our sources

offer a truly profound historical

example

565

00:15:12,320 –> 00:15:14,080

Josephine Nolan: of this through the

story of Lady Tsogyal.

567

00:15:15,039 –> 00:15:15,840

Dave Lang: Yes, Lady Yeshe Tsogyal.

568

00:15:15,840 –> 00:15:18,240

Dave Lang: I was captivated by this

interaction.

571

00:15:20,090 –> 00:15:24,000

Dave Lang: She was Guru Rinpoche’s

primary disciple, his spiritual

consort,

572

00:15:24,000 –> 00:15:27,519

Dave Lang: and a highly accomplished

legendary practitioner in her own

573

00:15:27,519 –> 00:15:27,519

Dave Lang:right.

575

00:15:28,000 –> 00:15:28,240

Josephine Nolan: Very advanced.

577

00:15:28,960 –> 00:15:31,120

Dave Lang: But as her master was

preparing to leave Tibet,

essentially,

578

00:15:31,120 –> 00:15:35,759

Dave Lang: as she was facing this

massive, profound, imminent loss of

the

579

00:15:35,759 –> 00:15:39,919

Dave Lang: most important person in

her life, she had a very raw, very

580

00:15:39,919 –> 00:15:41,039

Dave Lang: human moment of total

panic.

582

00:15:41,679 –> 00:15:44,480

Josephine Nolan: She did, and it is

so validating to read.

583

00:15:44,480 –> 00:15:47,440

Josephine Nolan: Because despite her

years of intense meditation,

retreats,

584

00:15:47,440 –> 00:15:50,799

Josephine Nolan: and rigorous study,

the reality of the impending grief

585

00:15:50,799 –> 00:15:52,080

Josephine Nolan: broke through all

of it.

587

00:15:52,399 –> 00:15:53,360

Dave Lang: It just shattered her

composure.

589

00:15:53,919 –> 00:15:53,919

Josephine Nolan: Right.

590

00:15:53,919 –> 00:15:54,960

Josephine Nolan: She pleaded with

him.

591

00:15:54,960 –> 00:15:57,919

Josephine Nolan: She said, “This old

woman has no confidence about the

593

00:15:58,639 –> 00:16:00,000

Dave Lang: She was terrified of

losing her anchor.

595

00:16:00,559 –> 00:16:01,759

Josephine Nolan: She was terrified

of the unknown.

596

00:16:01,759 –> 00:16:06,000

Josephine Nolan: She realized that

all her complex visualizations and

high-level

597

00:16:06,000 –> 00:16:09,519

Josephine Nolan: philosophies might

evaporate when the sheer terror of

598

00:16:09,519 –> 00:16:10,799

Josephine Nolan: death and loss

actually arrived.

600

00:16:11,519 –> 00:16:12,480

Dave Lang: So what did she ask for?

602

00:16:12,960 –> 00:16:16,320

Josephine Nolan: So she asked him

for a concise, easy-to-practice

instruction.

603

00:16:16,320 –> 00:16:19,360

Josephine Nolan: She essentially

said, strip away all the complexity.

604

00:16:19,360 –> 00:16:23,679

Josephine Nolan: Give me the

absolute, irreducible core of what I

need

605

00:16:23,679 –> 00:16:25,200

Josephine Nolan: to do when the

terror hits me.

607

00:16:25,600 –> 00:16:29,039

Dave Lang: And his response to her

plea is known in the texts as the

refined

608

00:16:29,039 –> 00:16:30,480

Dave Lang: essence of oral

instructions.

609

00:16:30,480 –> 00:16:34,399

Dave Lang: It is an absolute

masterclass in tactile and mental

anchoring.

611

00:16:34,960 –> 00:16:35,360

Speaker 2: It really is.

613

00:16:35,759 –> 00:16:38,879

Dave Lang: He breaks it down into

three incredibly simple yet

profoundly

614

00:16:38,879 –> 00:16:42,559

Dave Lang: difficult steps:body,

speech, and mind.

616

00:16:43,200 –> 00:16:45,279

Josephine Nolan: Let’s break down

the mechanics of those three steps,

starting

617

00:16:45,279 –> 00:16:45,759

Josephine Nolan: with the body.

619

00:16:46,159 –> 00:16:46,159

Dave Lang: Okay.

621

00:16:46,639 –> 00:16:49,759

Josephine Nolan: His instruction to

her is simply this:rest free and

622

00:16:49,759 –> 00:16:50,799

Josephine Nolan: relaxed as you feel

comfortable.

624

00:16:51,519 –> 00:16:54,320

Dave Lang: Which, again, sounds

lovely and easy until you are having

a

625

00:16:54,320 –> 00:16:54,559

Dave Lang: panic attack.

627

00:16:55,039 –> 00:16:55,039

Josephine Nolan: Right.

628

00:16:55,039 –> 00:16:56,000

Josephine Nolan: Easier said than

done.

630

00:16:56,320 –> 00:16:58,639

Dave Lang: At which point your

shoulders are glued to your

earlobes, your

631

00:16:58,639 –> 00:17:01,679

Dave Lang: jaw is locked like a

vice, and your hands are cramped

into fists.

632

00:17:01,679 –> 00:17:03,039

Dave Lang: How do you just relax?

634

00:17:03,919 –> 00:17:06,319

Josephine Nolan: Well, the

brilliance of the instruction is in

its lack

635

00:17:06,319 –> 00:17:06,799

Josephine Nolan: of rigidity.

636

00:17:06,799 –> 00:17:10,319

Josephine Nolan: He doesn’t tell her

to force herself into a perfect full

637

00:17:10,319 –> 00:17:11,920

Josephine Nolan: lotus meditation

posture.

638

00:17:11,920 –> 00:17:14,160

Josephine Nolan: He tells her to

rest as she feels comfortable.

640

00:17:14,880 –> 00:17:16,000

Dave Lang: Why does that matter so

much?

642

00:17:16,400 –> 00:17:18,880

Josephine Nolan: When the body locks

up in a grief attack, it is sending

643

00:17:18,880 –> 00:17:22,079

Josephine Nolan: a biofeedback loop

to the brain, confirming that there

644

00:17:22,079 –> 00:17:22,880

Josephine Nolan: is a physical

threat.

645

00:17:22,880 –> 00:17:26,319

Josephine Nolan: My muscles are

tense, therefore the tiger is in the

room.

647

00:17:26,799 –> 00:17:27,039

Dave Lang: Oh wow.

649

00:17:27,680 –> 00:17:30,559

Josephine Nolan: By consciously,

deliberately scanning your body in

that

650

00:17:30,559 –> 00:17:33,279

Josephine Nolan: grocery store aisle

and forcing your shoulders to drop,

651

00:17:33,279 –> 00:17:36,720

Josephine Nolan: forcing your hands

to unclench, you begin to short

circuit

652

00:17:36,720 –> 00:17:38,480

Josephine Nolan: that somatic

feedback loop.

654

00:17:39,039 –> 00:17:41,039

Dave Lang: You are telling the

nervous system there is no tiger.

656

00:17:41,680 –> 00:17:41,680

Josephine Nolan: Precisely. You are

working from the outside in.

658

00:17:43,599 –> 00:17:44,880

Dave Lang: Okay, then he moves to

the second anchor.

659

00:17:44,880 –> 00:17:45,680

Dave Lang: Speech.

660

00:17:45,680 –> 00:17:49,359

Dave Lang: He tells her, stop

speaking and rest like a mute.

662

00:17:50,079 –> 00:17:52,640

Josephine Nolan: I want you to think

about what we universally do when

663

00:17:52,640 –> 00:17:55,680

Josephine Nolan: we are panicked or

deep in the throes of acute grief.

665

00:17:56,480 –> 00:18:00,000

Dave Lang: We talk, we talk rapidly,

we cry out, we pace around muttering

666

00:18:00,000 –> 00:18:04,400

Dave Lang: to ourselves, we verbally

rehearse our fears over and over to

667

00:18:04,400 –> 00:18:06,960

Dave Lang: anyone who will listen,

or just to the empty room.

669

00:18:07,359 –> 00:18:08,160

Josephine Nolan: Like, what am I

gonna do?

671

00:18:08,640 –> 00:18:08,640

Dave Lang: Right.

672

00:18:08,640 –> 00:18:10,079

Dave Lang: How will I live without

them?

673

00:18:10,079 –> 00:18:11,039

Dave Lang: I can’t handle this.

674

00:18:11,039 –> 00:18:11,599

Dave Lang: This is unbearable.

675

00:18:11,599 –> 00:18:12,480

Dave Lang: Exactly.

677

00:18:13,279 –> 00:18:15,680

Josephine Nolan: We are literally

speaking the panic into existence.

678

00:18:15,680 –> 00:18:19,519

Josephine Nolan: We are vocalizing

the storyline of our own terror, and

679

00:18:19,519 –> 00:18:22,640

Josephine Nolan: the brain hears

those words and registers them as

undeniable

680

00:18:22,640 –> 00:18:23,359

Josephine Nolan: facts.

682

00:18:24,000 –> 00:18:25,279

Dave Lang: The brain believes what

we say.

684

00:18:25,680 –> 00:18:26,000

Josephine Nolan: It does.

685

00:18:26,000 –> 00:18:29,920

Josephine Nolan: By resting like a

mute, by taking a vow of absolute

silence

686

00:18:29,920 –> 00:18:32,720

Josephine Nolan: in the middle of

the grief attack, we cut off the

verbal

687

00:18:32,720 –> 00:18:33,759

Josephine Nolan: fuel for the

anxiety.

688

00:18:33,759 –> 00:18:37,039

Josephine Nolan: We stop

broadcasting the emergency signal on

the radio.

690

00:18:37,599 –> 00:18:38,880

Dave Lang: It’s like starving a fire

of oxygen.

692

00:18:39,519 –> 00:18:40,079

Josephine Nolan: That’s exactly it.

694

00:18:40,400 –> 00:18:43,279

Dave Lang: And that leads directly

to the third and easily the most

challenging

695

00:18:43,279 –> 00:18:45,119

Dave Lang: instruction:the mind.

697

00:18:45,599 –> 00:18:46,160

Josephine Nolan: This is the hard

part.

699

00:18:46,559 –> 00:18:50,559

Dave Lang: Guru Rinpoche tells Lady

Tsogyal to let the mind rest in its

700

00:18:50,559 –> 00:18:54,079

Dave Lang: natural state, free and

easy, without fabrication or

fixation.

702

00:18:54,880 –> 00:18:57,519

Josephine Nolan: This is the core

psychological technology of what

Buddhism

703

00:18:57,519 –> 00:18:58,559

Josephine Nolan: calls

non-fabrication.

705

00:18:59,839 –> 00:19:00,960

Dave Lang: What does that actually

mean in practice?

707

00:19:01,519 –> 00:19:05,200

Josephine Nolan: Well, when a

profound loss hits, our minds almost

instantaneously

708

00:19:05,200 –> 00:19:08,079

Josephine Nolan: begin to fabricate

complex future scenarios.

709

00:19:08,079 –> 00:19:09,839

Josephine Nolan: Let’s say you lose

your spouse.

710

00:19:09,839 –> 00:19:12,640

Josephine Nolan: In the first 10

seconds of the grief attack, your

mind

711

00:19:12,640 –> 00:19:14,960

Josephine Nolan: doesn’t just

process the fact that they are gone

right

712

00:19:14,960 –> 00:19:15,279

Josephine Nolan: now.

713

00:19:15,279 –> 00:19:19,119

Josephine Nolan: It fabricates the

empty chair at Thanksgiving three

months

714

00:19:19,119 –> 00:19:19,599

Josephine Nolan: from now.

716

00:19:20,000 –> 00:19:20,319

Dave Lang: Oh man.

718

00:19:20,880 –> 00:19:24,240

Josephine Nolan: It fabricates the

loneliness of waking up in an empty

719

00:19:24,240 –> 00:19:25,519

Josephine Nolan: bed 10 years from

now.

720

00:19:25,519 –> 00:19:29,920

Josephine Nolan: It projects the

current, acute pain into an endless,

hallucinated

721

00:19:29,920 –> 00:19:30,799

Josephine Nolan: future.

723

00:19:31,440 –> 00:19:34,640

Dave Lang: We basically build a

whole cinematic universe of our own

future

724

00:19:34,640 –> 00:19:37,599

Dave Lang: suffering complete with a

terrifying soundtrack.

726

00:19:38,480 –> 00:19:38,480

Josephine Nolan: Yeah.

728

00:19:38,960 –> 00:19:41,759

Dave Lang: And we force ourselves to

watch the entire movie in the span

729

00:19:41,759 –> 00:19:42,559

Dave Lang: of 30 seconds.

731

00:19:43,200 –> 00:19:46,000

Josephine Nolan: And that cinematic

universe compounds the panic

exponentially.

732

00:19:46,000 –> 00:19:50,319

Josephine Nolan: You are no longer

just dealing with the raw pain at

the

733

00:19:50,319 –> 00:19:50,799

Josephine Nolan: present moment.

734

00:19:50,799 –> 00:19:54,000

Josephine Nolan: Your nervous system

is trying to process decades of

fabricated

735

00:19:54,000 –> 00:19:55,519

Josephine Nolan: future pain all at

once.

737

00:19:56,000 –> 00:19:56,960

Dave Lang: It causes a system

failure.

739

00:19:57,440 –> 00:19:57,440

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

740

00:19:57,440 –> 00:20:00,880

Josephine Nolan: Resting unaltered

without fabrication means

deliberately

741

00:20:00,880 –> 00:20:02,880

Josephine Nolan: stopping that

mental spiraling.

742

00:20:02,880 –> 00:20:05,359

Josephine Nolan: You refuse to write

the script for tomorrow.

743

00:20:05,359 –> 00:20:06,960

Josephine Nolan: You refuse to

imagine Thanksgiving.

744

00:20:06,960 –> 00:20:10,000

Josephine Nolan: You just stay with

exactly what is happening in the

current

745

00:20:10,000 –> 00:20:10,240

Josephine Nolan: millisecond.

747

00:20:11,119 –> 00:20:12,160

Dave Lang: Here’s where it gets

really interesting.

748

00:20:12,160 –> 00:20:16,960

Dave Lang: If I am resting my body

and I am acting like a mute and I am

749

00:20:16,960 –> 00:20:21,119

Dave Lang: refusing to fabricate any

storylines in my mind, if the mind

750

00:20:21,119 –> 00:20:24,079

Dave Lang: is supposed to be empty

of all these fixations, does that

mean

751

00:20:24,079 –> 00:20:25,759

Dave Lang: I am supposed to feel

nothing?

752

00:20:25,759 –> 00:20:30,240

Dave Lang: Are we just using ancient

techniques to become emotionally

numb

753

00:20:30,240 –> 00:20:30,880

Dave Lang: to the grief?

755

00:20:31,519 –> 00:20:34,240

Josephine Nolan: That is a very

common and very dangerous

misconception

756

00:20:34,240 –> 00:20:36,160

Josephine Nolan: about Buddhist

practice.

758

00:20:36,720 –> 00:20:37,839

Dave Lang: Okay, clarify that for

me.

760

00:20:38,240 –> 00:20:39,759

Josephine Nolan: No, you are not

trying to become numb.

761

00:20:39,759 –> 00:20:43,359

Josephine Nolan: Guru Rinpoche

actually anticipates this exact

question

762

00:20:43,359 –> 00:20:44,240

Josephine Nolan: in the texts.

763

00:20:44,240 –> 00:20:46,880

Josephine Nolan: He says, if you

wonder, is it nothing?

764

00:20:46,880 –> 00:20:50,720

Josephine Nolan: Notice how the mind

still shimmers and flashes like haze

765

00:20:50,720 –> 00:20:51,680

Josephine Nolan: in the heat of the

sun.

767

00:20:52,319 –> 00:20:54,880

Dave Lang: Like that visual

distortion you see hovering over

dark asphalt

768

00:20:54,880 –> 00:20:56,720

Dave Lang: on a hundred-degree

summer day.

770

00:20:57,119 –> 00:20:57,119

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

771

00:20:57,119 –> 00:21:01,039

Josephine Nolan: The mind is utterly

empty of fabricated storylines, yes,

772

00:21:01,039 –> 00:21:03,279

Josephine Nolan: but it is

completely vibrantly awake.

773

00:21:03,279 –> 00:21:04,640

Josephine Nolan: You aren’t

suppressing the grief.

775

00:21:05,200 –> 00:21:05,759

Dave Lang: Now pushing it down.

777

00:21:06,000 –> 00:21:07,039

Josephine Nolan: You aren’t numbing

the sorrow.

778

00:21:07,039 –> 00:21:10,720

Josephine Nolan: You are fully

feeling the intense, blistering heat

of

779

00:21:10,720 –> 00:21:12,960

Josephine Nolan: the emotion, but

you are just watching it shimmer.

780

00:21:12,960 –> 00:21:15,839

Josephine Nolan: You aren’t

attaching a narrative to it.

781

00:21:15,839 –> 00:21:18,720

Josephine Nolan: You aren’t saying,

this is bad, this will kill me, this

782

00:21:18,720 –> 00:21:19,119

Josephine Nolan: is unfair.

783

00:21:19,119 –> 00:21:24,160

Josephine Nolan: You are just

observing the raw, searing sensation

of the

784

00:21:24,160 –> 00:21:26,480

Josephine Nolan: grief without

getting tangled up in it.

786

00:21:26,880 –> 00:21:30,720

Dave Lang: But resting in that state

of nonfabrication, just watching the

787

00:21:30,720 –> 00:21:32,000

Dave Lang: heat shimmer without

reacting.

789

00:21:32,640 –> 00:21:32,880

Josephine Nolan: It’s hard.

791

00:21:33,440 –> 00:21:34,720

Dave Lang: That is incredibly

difficult.

792

00:21:34,720 –> 00:21:38,640

Dave Lang: You can’t just tell your

brain to stop spiraling when you are

793

00:21:38,640 –> 00:21:39,920

Dave Lang: in the middle of grief

attack.

794

00:21:39,920 –> 00:21:41,680

Dave Lang: It’s like telling water

not to be wet.

796

00:21:42,319 –> 00:21:42,319

Josephine Nolan: Right.

797

00:21:42,319 –> 00:21:43,440

Josephine Nolan: You need help to do

it.

799

00:21:43,759 –> 00:21:46,240

Dave Lang: You need a physical

tether to keep you anchored in that

nonfabricated

800

00:21:46,240 –> 00:21:47,599

Dave Lang: present moment.

802

00:21:48,079 –> 00:21:50,960

Josephine Nolan: Which is why we

have to bring in the most

fundamental

803

00:21:50,960 –> 00:21:53,920

Josephine Nolan: anchor of all the

absolute bridge between the

panicking

804

00:21:53,920 –> 00:21:55,519

Josephine Nolan: mind and the

physical body.

806

00:21:56,079 –> 00:21:56,480

Dave Lang: Paced breathing.

808

00:21:57,039 –> 00:21:58,480

Josephine Nolan: It is the ultimate

somatic tool.

810

00:21:58,960 –> 00:22:02,640

Dave Lang: And to ground this in

modern reality, our sources bring

Ondrea

811

00:22:02,640 –> 00:22:02,799

Dave Lang: Levine.

813

00:22:03,519 –> 00:22:04,400

Josephine Nolan: She’s a fascinating

figure.

815

00:22:04,960 –> 00:22:05,279

Dave Lang: She really is.

816

00:22:05,279 –> 00:22:08,640

Dave Lang: She worked extensively in

palliative care, sitting quietly in

817

00:22:08,640 –> 00:22:11,440

Dave Lang: rooms with people who are

actively dying and working with

their

818

00:22:11,440 –> 00:22:12,079

Dave Lang: grieving families.

820

00:22:12,640 –> 00:22:16,079

Josephine Nolan: And on top of that,

she faced her own severe cancer

diagnosis.

822

00:22:17,279 –> 00:22:17,279

Dave Lang: Right.

823

00:22:17,279 –> 00:22:21,759

Dave Lang: So she deeply, intimately

understood the terror of the unknown

824

00:22:21,759 –> 00:22:23,359

Dave Lang: and the shock of sudden

grief.

826

00:22:24,000 –> 00:22:26,880

Josephine Nolan: She spent a

lifetime observing the mechanics of

fear,

827

00:22:26,880 –> 00:22:28,079

Josephine Nolan: and she noted

something profound.

829

00:22:28,880 –> 00:22:29,279

Dave Lang: What was it?

831

00:22:29,599 –> 00:22:32,400

Josephine Nolan: She noted that our

immense overwhelming fear around

death

832

00:22:32,400 –> 00:22:36,480

Josephine Nolan: or profound loss is

at its absolute core simply a fear

833

00:22:36,480 –> 00:22:37,680

Josephine Nolan: of a loss of

control.

835

00:22:38,319 –> 00:22:38,319

Dave Lang: Right.

836

00:22:38,319 –> 00:22:41,279

Dave Lang: The mind desperately

wants to control the uncontrollable.

837

00:22:41,279 –> 00:22:43,599

Dave Lang: It wants to negotiate

with reality.

838

00:22:43,599 –> 00:22:45,759

Dave Lang: Like if I do this, maybe

they won’t die.

839

00:22:45,759 –> 00:22:48,240

Dave Lang: If I worry enough, maybe

I can control the outcome.

841

00:22:48,799 –> 00:22:52,160

Josephine Nolan: And when it

realizes it absolutely cannot, the

panic sets

842

00:22:52,160 –> 00:22:52,480

Josephine Nolan: in.

844

00:22:52,880 –> 00:22:55,920

Dave Lang: But Ondrea Levine points

out that those terrifying thoughts

845

00:22:55,920 –> 00:22:57,680

Dave Lang: about losing control are

just our conditioning.

846

00:22:57,680 –> 00:22:59,759

Dave Lang: They are just the innate

demon talking.

847

00:22:59,759 –> 00:23:00,960

Dave Lang: They aren’t reality.

849

00:23:01,599 –> 00:23:04,160

Josephine Nolan: And her somatic

panic management tool to counter

this

850

00:23:04,160 –> 00:23:05,440

Josephine Nolan: is beautifully,

brutally simple.

852

00:23:05,920 –> 00:23:06,319

Dave Lang: What does she recommend?

854

00:23:06,799 –> 00:23:08,079

Josephine Nolan: She says slow the

breath down.

855

00:23:08,079 –> 00:23:10,559

Josephine Nolan: In slowing it down,

it calms the whole body.

857

00:23:11,119 –> 00:23:13,440

Dave Lang: When you are sitting in

the sterile waiting room waiting for

858

00:23:13,440 –> 00:23:16,319

Dave Lang: the horrible test

results, or when the grief attack

hits you

859

00:23:16,319 –> 00:23:18,960

Dave Lang: in the grocery store, you

don’t fight the terrifying thoughts

860

00:23:18,960 –> 00:23:19,279

Dave Lang: directly.

862

00:23:20,079 –> 00:23:22,000

Josephine Nolan: No, you don’t argue

with the innate demons.

864

00:23:22,559 –> 00:23:25,440

Dave Lang: You just turn all your

attention to your physical body and

you

865

00:23:25,440 –> 00:23:27,839

Dave Lang: deliberately manually

slow the breath.

867

00:23:28,480 –> 00:23:31,440

Josephine Nolan: Because the breath

is the single autonomic function we

868

00:23:31,440 –> 00:23:32,480

Josephine Nolan: can consciously

override.

869

00:23:32,480 –> 00:23:35,119

Josephine Nolan: And this is where

the biology is crucial.

871

00:23:35,680 –> 00:23:36,480

Dave Lang: Talk to me about the

biology.

873

00:23:37,359 –> 00:23:40,640

Josephine Nolan: When you

deliberately slow and deepen your

breathing,

874

00:23:40,640 –> 00:23:44,960

Josephine Nolan: particularly the

exhale, you stimulate the vagus

nerve.

876

00:23:45,440 –> 00:23:45,920

Dave Lang: The vagus nerve.

878

00:23:46,400 –> 00:23:49,039

Josephine Nolan: Yeah, it’s this

massive wandering nerve fiber that

runs

879

00:23:49,039 –> 00:23:52,000

Josephine Nolan: from your brainstem

down through your chest and into

your

880

00:23:52,000 –> 00:23:52,160

Josephine Nolan: abdomen.

881

00:23:52,160 –> 00:23:55,920

Josephine Nolan: When you stimulate

it through deep breathing, it acts

882

00:23:55,920 –> 00:23:57,359

Josephine Nolan: as the breaking

system for your anxiety.

884

00:23:58,000 –> 00:23:58,400

Dave Lang: Oh, that’s amazing.

886

00:23:58,880 –> 00:24:01,359

Josephine Nolan: It activates the

parasympathetic nervous system,

which

887

00:24:01,359 –> 00:24:04,240

Josephine Nolan: is the rest and

digest system, and it chemically

signals

888

00:24:04,240 –> 00:24:07,279

Josephine Nolan: the sympathetic

fight or flight system to stand

down.

890

00:24:07,839 –> 00:24:11,119

Dave Lang: It literally floods the

body with acetylcholine, which

physically

891

00:24:11,119 –> 00:24:12,559

Dave Lang: lowers your heart rate.

892

00:24:12,559 –> 00:24:15,839

Dave Lang: You are biologically

forcing the body out of the “crushed

by

893

00:24:15,839 –> 00:24:16,480

Dave Lang: a mountain” state.

895

00:24:16,880 –> 00:24:18,480

Josephine Nolan: You are using the

body to hack the mind.

897

00:24:18,960 –> 00:24:22,559

Dave Lang: And the sources connect

this modern biological somatic tool

898

00:24:22,559 –> 00:24:25,200

Dave Lang: to something incredibly

ancient and profound from the

Buddhist

899

00:24:25,200 –> 00:24:25,680

Dave Lang: canon.

901

00:24:26,160 –> 00:24:27,119

Josephine Nolan: The Maranasati

Sutta.

903

00:24:27,519 –> 00:24:27,519

Dave Lang: Right.

904

00:24:27,519 –> 00:24:30,799

Dave Lang: Which is the Buddha’s

specific discourse on the

mindfulness

905

00:24:30,799 –> 00:24:30,880

Dave Lang: of death.

907

00:24:31,440 –> 00:24:34,400

Josephine Nolan: This text provides

a fascinating, almost shocking look

908

00:24:34,400 –> 00:24:36,640

Josephine Nolan: at the concept of

urgency and presence.

909

00:24:36,640 –> 00:24:40,079

Josephine Nolan: The Buddha is

sitting with a group of his monks,

and he’s

910

00:24:40,079 –> 00:24:42,480

Josephine Nolan: asking them how

they practice mindfulness of death.

912

00:24:42,960 –> 00:24:46,799

Dave Lang: He’s essentially asking

them, how acutely aware are you of

your

913

00:24:46,799 –> 00:24:47,279

Dave Lang: own impermanence?

915

00:24:48,319 –> 00:24:48,319

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

916

00:24:48,319 –> 00:24:51,119

Josephine Nolan: And the progression

of their answers is amazing.

917

00:24:51,119 –> 00:24:55,759

Josephine Nolan: One monk speaks up

and says, I am very mindful, I think

918

00:24:55,759 –> 00:24:58,880

Josephine Nolan: to myself, oh, that

I might live for just a day and a

919

00:24:58,880 –> 00:24:59,759

Josephine Nolan: night so I can

practice.

921

00:25:00,559 –> 00:25:03,519

Dave Lang: And another monk says, I

hope I might live for just a single

922

00:25:03,519 –> 00:25:03,839

Dave Lang: day.

924

00:25:04,240 –> 00:25:04,240

Josephine Nolan: Right.

925

00:25:04,240 –> 00:25:06,799

Josephine Nolan: And another cuts it

down further and says, just for the

926

00:25:06,799 –> 00:25:08,559

Josephine Nolan: interval it takes

to eat a single meal.

928

00:25:09,200 –> 00:25:11,920

Dave Lang: Another goes even further

and says, just the time it takes to

929

00:25:11,920 –> 00:25:14,480

Dave Lang: chew and swallow four

morsels of food.

931

00:25:15,200 –> 00:25:18,079

Josephine Nolan: And to our modern

ears, you would think that being so

932

00:25:18,079 –> 00:25:20,240

Josephine Nolan: mindful that you

realize you might only live long

enough

933

00:25:20,240 –> 00:25:22,799

Josephine Nolan: to eat four bites

of food is incredibly intense.

934

00:25:22,799 –> 00:25:24,640

Josephine Nolan: It sounds like the

pinnacle of focus.

936

00:25:25,359 –> 00:25:26,000

Dave Lang: It really does.

937

00:25:26,000 –> 00:25:28,720

Dave Lang: But the Buddha shakes his

head and says no.

939

00:25:29,119 –> 00:25:29,920

Josephine Nolan: He tells them

they’re wrong.

941

00:25:30,400 –> 00:25:33,440

Dave Lang: He tells them that all of

those monks, even the one thinking

942

00:25:33,440 –> 00:25:36,799

Dave Lang: about four morsels of

food, are still dwelling heedlessly.

943

00:25:36,799 –> 00:25:39,119

Dave Lang: They are still doing it

wrong.

945

00:25:39,680 –> 00:25:41,839

Josephine Nolan: They are still

projecting too far into the future.

946

00:25:41,839 –> 00:25:43,599

Josephine Nolan: They are still

fabricating a timeline.

948

00:25:44,319 –> 00:25:45,039

Dave Lang: So what’s the right

answer?

950

00:25:45,599 –> 00:25:48,799

Josephine Nolan: The Buddha says the

truly heedful monk, the one who is

951

00:25:48,799 –> 00:25:51,519

Josephine Nolan: developing

mindfulness of death acutely and

correctly,

952

00:25:51,519 –> 00:25:55,359

Josephine Nolan: is the one who

lives entirely within the interval

it takes

953

00:25:55,359 –> 00:25:58,319

Josephine Nolan: to breathe out

after breathing in, or to breathe in

after

954

00:25:58,319 –> 00:25:59,039

Josephine Nolan: breathing out.

956

00:25:59,519 –> 00:26:00,480

Dave Lang: I just love that so much.

958

00:26:00,799 –> 00:26:01,200

Josephine Nolan: It’s so powerful.

960

00:26:01,839 –> 00:26:06,319

Dave Lang: Because when you are

having a grief attack, your brain is

furiously

961

00:26:06,319 –> 00:26:11,119

Dave Lang: trying to figure out how

you are going to survive the next 10

962

00:26:11,119 –> 00:26:14,160

Dave Lang: years or the next week or

even just the rest of the day

without

963

00:26:14,160 –> 00:26:14,799

Dave Lang: this person.

965

00:26:15,200 –> 00:26:15,200

Speaker 2: Yeah.

967

00:26:15,839 –> 00:26:19,200

Dave Lang: And that massive heavy

calculation is exactly why you are

collapsing.

968

00:26:19,200 –> 00:26:22,720

Dave Lang: Trying to get through the

whole day is too much weight.

970

00:26:23,200 –> 00:26:24,240

Josephine Nolan: It is an impossible

burden.

972

00:26:25,039 –> 00:26:28,319

Dave Lang: The sutta is telling you

you don’t have to survive the rest

973

00:26:28,319 –> 00:26:29,519

Dave Lang: of your life without them

right now.

974

00:26:29,519 –> 00:26:31,519

Dave Lang: You don’t even have to

survive the next 10 minutes.

976

00:26:31,920 –> 00:26:31,920

Nadine: Yeah.

978

00:26:32,400 –> 00:26:35,279

Dave Lang: You just have to survive

the single individual inbreath.

979

00:26:35,279 –> 00:26:38,720

Dave Lang: And once you do that, you

just have to survive this single

outbreath.

980

00:26:38,720 –> 00:26:41,920

Dave Lang: That is the only timeline

that actually physically exists.

982

00:26:42,640 –> 00:26:45,279

Josephine Nolan: If we connect this

to the bigger picture, this urgent,

983

00:26:45,279 –> 00:26:49,759

Josephine Nolan: absolute

microscopic focus on a single breath

does something

984

00:26:49,759 –> 00:26:51,680

Josephine Nolan: philosophically and

psychologically extraordinary.

986

00:26:52,480 –> 00:26:52,880

Dave Lang: What’s that?

988

00:26:53,359 –> 00:26:56,160

Josephine Nolan: By shrinking your

entire conscious existence down to

the

989

00:26:56,160 –> 00:27:00,079

Josephine Nolan: tiny space of one

inhalation, you completely sever

your

990

00:27:00,079 –> 00:27:01,759

Josephine Nolan: connection to the

past and the future.

991

00:27:01,759 –> 00:27:05,200

Josephine Nolan: And in Buddhist

philosophy, when you completely

sever

992

00:27:05,200 –> 00:27:07,200

Josephine Nolan: the past and the

future, you plunge into what the

Buddha

993

00:27:07,200 –> 00:27:08,240

Josephine Nolan: called the

deathless.

995

00:27:09,039 –> 00:27:09,200

Dave Lang: The deathless.

996

00:27:09,200 –> 00:27:10,160

Dave Lang: That sounds esoteric.

997

00:27:10,160 –> 00:27:11,359

Dave Lang: What does it actually

mean?

999

00:27:11,759 –> 00:27:15,119

Josephine Nolan: Well, death is a

concept that is entirely bound by

time.

1000

00:27:15,119 –> 00:27:17,440

Josephine Nolan: Grief is entirely

bound by time.

1001

00:27:17,440 –> 00:27:20,160

Josephine Nolan: We are grieving

what happened in the past, and we

are

1002

00:27:20,160 –> 00:27:22,160

Josephine Nolan: grieving the

experiences that won’t happen in the

future.

1004

00:27:22,640 –> 00:27:24,079

Dave Lang: So time’s the framework

for all of it.

1006

00:27:24,559 –> 00:27:24,559

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

1007

00:27:24,559 –> 00:27:30,000

Josephine Nolan: But inside the

exact razor-thin present moment of a

single

1008

00:27:30,000 –> 00:27:31,680

Josephine Nolan: breath, there is no

time.

1009

00:27:31,680 –> 00:27:34,880

Josephine Nolan: The concept of time

cannot exist in the absolute

present.

1010

00:27:34,880 –> 00:27:36,319

Josephine Nolan: There is only raw

awareness.

1011

00:27:36,319 –> 00:27:40,240

Josephine Nolan: By focusing

entirely on the sensation of the

breath, you

1012

00:27:40,240 –> 00:27:43,920

Josephine Nolan: step completely out

of the timeline of suffering and

into

1013

00:27:43,920 –> 00:27:45,119

Josephine Nolan: the deathless

present.

1014

00:27:45,119 –> 00:27:48,480

Josephine Nolan: It is the ultimate

refuge from the panic of time.

1016

00:27:49,279 –> 00:27:52,720

Dave Lang: So if we synthesize this,

we have a profound toolkit for the

1017

00:27:52,720 –> 00:27:53,279

Dave Lang: acute phase.

1019

00:27:53,759 –> 00:27:53,759

Josephine Nolan: Right.

1020

00:27:53,759 –> 00:27:54,640

Josephine Nolan: When the wave first

hits.

1022

00:27:55,200 –> 00:27:56,799

Dave Lang: The 50-foot wave hits you

in aisle four.

1023

00:27:56,799 –> 00:28:00,400

Dave Lang: We recognize that the

crushing mountain feeling is an

empty

1024

00:28:00,400 –> 00:28:01,759

Dave Lang: weather pattern, it’s a

phantom limb.

1025

00:28:01,759 –> 00:28:03,279

Dave Lang: It’s not our core

identity.

1027

00:28:04,000 –> 00:28:04,319

Josephine Nolan: Step one.

1029

00:28:04,880 –> 00:28:08,000

Dave Lang: We deliberately relax our

shoulders, we stop speaking to cut

1030

00:28:08,000 –> 00:28:10,240

Dave Lang: off the verbal fuel, and

we rest like a mute.

1031

00:28:10,240 –> 00:28:13,599

Dave Lang: We drop the fabricated

storylines of future Thanksgiving

dinners.

1033

00:28:14,079 –> 00:28:16,960

Josephine Nolan: And we anchor

entirely onto a single in-breath and

out-breath,

1034

00:28:16,960 –> 00:28:20,240

Josephine Nolan: surviving just that

one moment stepping into the

deathless.

1036

00:28:21,119 –> 00:28:22,400

Dave Lang: That is the acute

management protocol.

1038

00:28:23,039 –> 00:28:25,039

Josephine Nolan: Yes, that handles

the immediate panic attack.

1040

00:28:25,680 –> 00:28:28,000

Dave Lang: But eventually, the acute

panic subsides.

1042

00:28:28,880 –> 00:28:29,599

Josephine Nolan: The wave rolls

back.

1044

00:28:29,920 –> 00:28:32,559

Dave Lang: The adrenaline burns off,

your heart rate drops back to

normal,

1045

00:28:32,559 –> 00:28:35,039

Dave Lang: and you are no longer

gasping for air.

1046

00:28:35,039 –> 00:28:37,279

Dave Lang: But the wave leaves

wreckage behind.

1048

00:28:37,759 –> 00:28:38,079

Josephine Nolan: It always does.

1050

00:28:38,720 –> 00:28:41,759

Dave Lang: You are just left sitting

in a very quiet house, looking at

1051

00:28:41,759 –> 00:28:45,599

Dave Lang: an empty chair or an

empty dog bed, with this deep,

aching,

1052

00:28:45,599 –> 00:28:46,240

Dave Lang: hollow sorrow.

1054

00:28:46,880 –> 00:28:47,119

Speaker 2: The aftermath.

1056

00:28:48,079 –> 00:28:49,440

Dave Lang: How do you survive that

part?

1057

00:28:49,440 –> 00:28:54,640

Dave Lang: How do we shift from that

agonizing, isolating space of raw

1058

00:28:54,640 –> 00:28:57,599

Dave Lang: grief to a place of

actual functional healing?

1060

00:28:58,400 –> 00:29:01,200

Josephine Nolan: Well, to understand

that shift, we have to deeply

examine

1061

00:29:01,200 –> 00:29:03,200

Josephine Nolan: the nature of

isolation and grief.

1063

00:29:03,680 –> 00:29:03,680

Speaker 2: Okay.

1065

00:29:04,079 –> 00:29:06,559

Josephine Nolan: When we lose

someone we love profoundly, we feel

uniquely

1066

00:29:06,559 –> 00:29:08,079

Josephine Nolan: cursed by the

universe.

1067

00:29:08,079 –> 00:29:11,839

Josephine Nolan: We feel completely

alone in our suffering, as if no one

1068

00:29:11,839 –> 00:29:14,240

Josephine Nolan: else could possibly

understand the depth of our specific

1069

00:29:14,240 –> 00:29:14,720

Josephine Nolan: pain.

1071

00:29:15,279 –> 00:29:17,119

Dave Lang: It’s a very isolating

narcissism of grief.

1073

00:29:17,599 –> 00:29:17,759

Josephine Nolan: It is.

1074

00:29:17,759 –> 00:29:20,400

Josephine Nolan: And our sources

share the classic foundational

Buddhist

1075

00:29:20,400 –> 00:29:23,359

Josephine Nolan: story of Kisagotami

to illustrate exactly this point.

1077

00:29:23,839 –> 00:29:24,640

Dave Lang: It’s a heartbreaking

story.

1078

00:29:24,640 –> 00:29:27,440

Dave Lang: She was a young mother

living in poverty, whose only child,

1079

00:29:27,440 –> 00:29:28,799

Dave Lang: a toddler, suddenly died.

1081

00:29:29,359 –> 00:29:29,680

Speaker 2: Just devastating.

1083

00:29:30,559 –> 00:29:33,519

Dave Lang: And she was so utterly

desperate, so maddened with grief

that

1084

00:29:33,519 –> 00:29:34,799

Dave Lang: she refused to accept it.

1085

00:29:34,799 –> 00:29:37,519

Dave Lang: She carried the child’s

body around the village, going from

1086

00:29:37,519 –> 00:29:40,319

Dave Lang: neighbor to neighbor,

begging people for a medicine to

cure

1087

00:29:40,319 –> 00:29:40,319

Dave Lang:him.

1089

00:29:40,880 –> 00:29:43,519

Josephine Nolan: She was in a state

of absolute blinding aversion, that

1090

00:29:43,519 –> 00:29:45,039

Josephine Nolan: Dvesha we discussed

earlier.

1091

00:29:45,039 –> 00:29:46,880

Josephine Nolan: She was refusing

reality.

1093

00:29:47,680 –> 00:29:47,680

Dave Lang: Right.

1094

00:29:47,680 –> 00:29:51,920

Dave Lang: And the villagers pitied

her, but they thought she had lost

1095

00:29:51,920 –> 00:29:52,160

Dave Lang: her mind.

1096

00:29:52,160 –> 00:29:54,960

Dave Lang: Finally, someone gently

directs her to the Buddha.

1098

00:29:55,440 –> 00:29:55,839

Speaker 2: And what happens?

1100

00:29:56,559 –> 00:30:00,480

Dave Lang: She runs to him, lays the

child down, and begs him for the

medicine

1101

00:30:00,480 –> 00:30:01,759

Dave Lang: to cure her boy.

1102

00:30:01,759 –> 00:30:06,000

Dave Lang: And the Buddha, rather

than lecturing her on impermanence,

performs

1103

00:30:06,000 –> 00:30:08,319

Dave Lang: this act of incredible

skillful compassion.

1105

00:30:09,119 –> 00:30:10,480

Josephine Nolan: He doesn’t just

tell her to get over it.

1107

00:30:10,960 –> 00:30:10,960

Dave Lang: No.

1108

00:30:10,960 –> 00:30:15,039

Dave Lang: He tells her he can

absolutely make the medicine, but he

requires

1109

00:30:15,039 –> 00:30:16,960

Dave Lang: a specific magical

ingredient.

1110

00:30:16,960 –> 00:30:19,119

Dave Lang: He needs a handful of

mustard seed.

1112

00:30:19,519 –> 00:30:20,960

Josephine Nolan: But he attaches one

crucial condition.

1114

00:30:21,599 –> 00:30:22,319

Dave Lang: The condition is

everything.

1115

00:30:22,319 –> 00:30:25,599

Dave Lang: He tells her the mustard

seed must come from a house that has

1116

00:30:25,599 –> 00:30:26,240

Dave Lang: never known death.

1118

00:30:26,720 –> 00:30:26,720

Josephine Nolan: Wow.

1120

00:30:27,279 –> 00:30:29,839

Dave Lang: A house where no one has

ever lost a child, a husband, a

parent,

1121

00:30:29,839 –> 00:30:30,400

Dave Lang: or a friend.

1123

00:30:30,880 –> 00:30:33,920

Josephine Nolan: And so, fueled by

frantic hope, she goes back into the

1124

00:30:33,920 –> 00:30:34,000

Josephine Nolan: city.

1125

00:30:34,000 –> 00:30:37,440

Josephine Nolan: She goes door to

door from the poorest shacks to the

wealthiest

1126

00:30:37,440 –> 00:30:38,079

Josephine Nolan: estates.

1128

00:30:38,960 –> 00:30:41,839

Dave Lang: And everyone is perfectly

willing to give her a handful of

mustard

1129

00:30:41,839 –> 00:30:43,440

Dave Lang: seed out of deep pity.

1130

00:30:43,440 –> 00:30:46,799

Dave Lang: But every single time

before she takes it, she asks the

condition,

1131

00:30:46,799 –> 00:30:48,960

Dave Lang: Has anyone died in this

house?

1133

00:30:49,440 –> 00:30:50,640

Josephine Nolan: And the answer is

always the same.

1134

00:30:50,640 –> 00:30:54,079

Josephine Nolan: They look at her

with profound sadness and say, Alas,

1135

00:30:54,079 –> 00:30:56,880

Josephine Nolan: the living are few,

but the dead are many.

1136

00:30:56,880 –> 00:30:59,359

Josephine Nolan: Do not remind us of

our deepest grief.

1138

00:31:00,079 –> 00:31:04,319

Dave Lang: She goes to dozens of

houses and she slowly realizes there

isn’t

1139

00:31:04,319 –> 00:31:07,519

Dave Lang: a single home untouched

by devastating loss.

1141

00:31:08,079 –> 00:31:11,599

Josephine Nolan: And as the sun

sets, her frantic hope gives way to

realization.

1142

00:31:11,599 –> 00:31:15,039

Josephine Nolan: She takes her child

to the cremation ground and she sits

1143

00:31:15,039 –> 00:31:15,440

Josephine Nolan: by the wayside.

1146

00:31:17,039 –> 00:31:19,200

Josephine Nolan: She watches the

lights of the city flicker up in the

darkness

1147

00:31:19,200 –> 00:31:22,799

Josephine Nolan: and then one by one

extinguish, and she has this massive

1148

00:31:22,799 –> 00:31:23,920

Josephine Nolan: cognitive shift.

1149

00:31:23,920 –> 00:31:26,640

Josephine Nolan: She sees the

absolute universality of death.

1151

00:31:27,119 –> 00:31:27,599

Dave Lang: She gets it.

1153

00:31:27,920 –> 00:31:30,480

Josephine Nolan: She realizes that

her grief, while intensely painful

and

1154

00:31:30,480 –> 00:31:33,519

Josephine Nolan: valid, was also

isolating her because she viewed it

selfishly

1155

00:31:33,519 –> 00:31:36,000

Josephine Nolan: as her unique

individual curse.

1156

00:31:36,000 –> 00:31:39,200

Josephine Nolan: She realizes that

the crushing weight she is carrying

1157

00:31:39,200 –> 00:31:41,519

Josephine Nolan: is the exact same

weight carried by everyone else in

the

1158

00:31:41,519 –> 00:31:41,599

Josephine Nolan: city.

1160

00:31:42,079 –> 00:31:43,920

Dave Lang: And that profound

realization breaks the isolation.

1162

00:31:44,640 –> 00:31:44,799

Josephine Nolan: It does.

1164

00:31:45,359 –> 00:31:47,200

Dave Lang: It doesn’t magically

bring her child back.

1165

00:31:47,200 –> 00:31:51,519

Dave Lang: The pain is still there,

but it connects her to the shared

beating

1166

00:31:51,519 –> 00:31:53,119

Dave Lang: heart of the human

experience.

1167

00:31:53,119 –> 00:31:55,279

Dave Lang: She is no longer alone.

1169

00:31:56,079 –> 00:31:58,319

Josephine Nolan: Which leads

perfectly into the teachings of the

late Zen

1170

00:31:58,319 –> 00:32:00,559

Josephine Nolan: master Thich Nhat

Han that are in our sources.

1172

00:32:01,200 –> 00:32:01,839

Dave Lang: Oh, I love his work.

1174

00:32:02,319 –> 00:32:04,880

Josephine Nolan: Because, well, it

is scientifically impossible for a

cloud

1175

00:32:04,880 –> 00:32:06,319

Josephine Nolan: to become

absolutely nothing.

1176

00:32:06,319 –> 00:32:08,559

Josephine Nolan: Matter and energy

cannot be destroyed.

1177

00:32:08,559 –> 00:32:10,319

Josephine Nolan: The cloud just

transforms.

1178

00:32:10,319 –> 00:32:14,240

Josephine Nolan: It becomes rain

which waters the soil, or it becomes

snow

1179

00:32:14,240 –> 00:32:16,079

Josephine Nolan: on a mountain or

ice in a glacier.

1180

00:32:16,079 –> 00:32:18,960

Josephine Nolan: It changes form,

but its essence continues.

1182

00:32:19,839 –> 00:32:23,359

Dave Lang: Therefore, he argues, the

notion of death, if we define death

1183

00:32:23,359 –> 00:32:26,880

Dave Lang: as passing from existence

into absolute nothingness, cannot

1184

00:32:26,880 –> 00:32:27,599

Dave Lang: be applied to reality.

1186

00:32:28,160 –> 00:32:29,279

Josephine Nolan: It’s a flawed human

concept.

1187

00:32:29,279 –> 00:32:32,480

Josephine Nolan: From someone, you

do not suddenly become no one.

1188

00:32:32,480 –> 00:32:35,039

Josephine Nolan: There is only

continuation and endless

transformation.

1190

00:32:35,839 –> 00:32:38,720

Dave Lang: And when you can deeply

internalize that framework, when you

1191

00:32:38,720 –> 00:32:41,119

Dave Lang: can remove the terrifying

notion that your loved one has

become

1192

00:32:41,119 –> 00:32:43,839

Dave Lang: an absolute nothing, you

remove the deepest root of the

panic.

1194

00:32:44,480 –> 00:32:44,480

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

1195

00:32:44,480 –> 00:32:46,640

Josephine Nolan: You aren’t grieving

their destruction, you are grieving

1196

00:32:46,640 –> 00:32:49,440

Josephine Nolan: their

transformation and your inability to

interact with

1197

00:32:49,440 –> 00:32:50,079

Josephine Nolan: their new form.

1199

00:32:50,640 –> 00:32:53,359

Dave Lang: This concept of

transformation is vividly

illustrated in Vajrayana

1200

00:32:53,359 –> 00:32:54,240

Dave Lang: Buddhism.

1201

00:32:54,240 –> 00:32:57,039

Dave Lang: And before we get into

the symbol, let’s briefly define

Vajrayana

1202

00:32:57,039 –> 00:32:58,000

Dave Lang: for the listener.

1204

00:32:58,400 –> 00:32:58,400

Josephine Nolan: Okay.

1205

00:32:58,400 –> 00:33:01,599

Josephine Nolan: Vajrayana, also

known as tantric Buddhism, is a

deeply

1206

00:33:01,599 –> 00:33:05,279

Josephine Nolan: esoteric, highly

symbolic branch of Buddhism

practiced

1207

00:33:05,279 –> 00:33:07,119

Josephine Nolan: widely in Tibet and

the Himalayas.

1209

00:33:08,079 –> 00:33:08,640

Dave Lang: What makes it unique?

1211

00:33:09,200 –> 00:33:12,480

Josephine Nolan: It uses intense

visualizations, mantras, and complex

rituals

1212

00:33:12,480 –> 00:33:16,240

Josephine Nolan: to rapidly

transform the mind’s impurities into

enlightened

1213

00:33:16,240 –> 00:33:16,960

Josephine Nolan: wisdom.

1215

00:33:17,599 –> 00:33:19,839

Dave Lang: And in this tradition,

they use a specific symbol to

represent

1216

00:33:19,839 –> 00:33:21,200

Dave Lang: this transformation of

grief.

1218

00:33:22,079 –> 00:33:22,240

Josephine Nolan: The peacock.

1220

00:33:23,039 –> 00:33:23,039

Dave Lang: Right.

1221

00:33:23,039 –> 00:33:25,440

Dave Lang: Specifically, Amitabha

Buddha’s peacock.

1222

00:33:25,440 –> 00:33:29,680

Dave Lang: Amitabha is the Buddha of

infinite light, and his sacred

mount,

1223

00:33:29,680 –> 00:33:31,599

Dave Lang: his throne, is supported

by peacocks.

1225

00:33:32,400 –> 00:33:34,480

Josephine Nolan: Which on the

surface just seems like a beautiful

decorative

1226

00:33:34,480 –> 00:33:35,039

Josephine Nolan: bird.

1228

00:33:35,519 –> 00:33:36,319

Dave Lang: Yeah, like why a peacock?

1230

00:33:37,039 –> 00:33:38,559

Josephine Nolan: The symbolism is

actually quite fierce.

1231

00:33:38,559 –> 00:33:42,400

Josephine Nolan: In ancient Indian

and Buddhist legend, peacocks are

considered

1232

00:33:42,400 –> 00:33:44,400

Josephine Nolan: sacred because they

are immune to poison.

1233

00:33:44,400 –> 00:33:47,519

Josephine Nolan: In the myths, they

actually hunt and eat highly

venomous

1234

00:33:47,519 –> 00:33:48,079

Josephine Nolan: snakes.

1236

00:33:48,720 –> 00:33:48,720

Dave Lang: Wow.

1238

00:33:49,599 –> 00:33:52,720

Josephine Nolan: The snakes in this

psychological framework represent

the

1239

00:33:52,720 –> 00:33:56,079

Josephine Nolan: lethal, toxic

poisons of our own minds,

specifically the

1240

00:33:56,079 –> 00:33:59,119

Josephine Nolan: raga, attachment,

and devasha aversion that we

discussed

1241

00:33:59,119 –> 00:33:59,519

Josephine Nolan: earlier.

1242

00:33:59,519 –> 00:34:02,799

Josephine Nolan: The raw, agonizing,

venomous pain of grief.

1244

00:34:03,440 –> 00:34:06,079

Dave Lang: And the legend says the

peacock doesn’t just survive eating

1245

00:34:06,079 –> 00:34:06,559

Dave Lang: the deadly poison.

1247

00:34:07,119 –> 00:34:08,159

Josephine Nolan: No, it thrives on

it.

1249

00:34:08,559 –> 00:34:12,239

Dave Lang: It actually uses an

internal alchemy to transmute that

lethal

1250

00:34:12,239 –> 00:34:16,079

Dave Lang: poison into the radiant,

brilliant, iridescent colors of its

1251

00:34:16,079 –> 00:34:16,559

Dave Lang: tail feathers.

1252

00:34:16,559 –> 00:34:20,800

Dave Lang: The venom literally

becomes the fuel for its profound

beauty

1253

00:34:20,800 –> 00:34:21,360

Dave Lang: and wisdom.

1255

00:34:21,920 –> 00:34:22,719

Josephine Nolan: It’s an amazing

metaphor.

1257

00:34:23,360 –> 00:34:25,119

Dave Lang: Okay, I have to jump in

here and play devil’s advocate.

1259

00:34:25,519 –> 00:34:25,679

Josephine Nolan: Go ahead.

1261

00:34:26,159 –> 00:34:29,280

Dave Lang: Because if I am listening

to this and I am deep in the

trenches

1262

00:34:29,280 –> 00:34:33,679

Dave Lang: of fresh grief, barely

able to get out of bed, this sounds

a

1263

00:34:33,679 –> 00:34:34,079

Dave Lang: little intense.

1264

00:34:34,079 –> 00:34:36,480

Dave Lang: So what does this all

mean for me?

1265

00:34:36,480 –> 00:34:40,639

Dave Lang: Are you saying I am

supposed to actively go out and eat

the

1266

00:34:40,639 –> 00:34:43,199

Dave Lang: poison of my grief to

make myself a better person?

1268

00:34:43,599 –> 00:34:44,480

Josephine Nolan: That’s a very fair

reaction.

1270

00:34:45,119 –> 00:34:47,119

Dave Lang: Am I supposed to be

grateful for the trauma so I can

have pretty

1271

00:34:47,119 –> 00:34:47,360

Dave Lang: feathers?

1272

00:34:47,360 –> 00:34:49,519

Dave Lang: That sounds like a recipe

for toxic positivity.

1274

00:34:50,239 –> 00:34:52,800

Josephine Nolan: That is a vital

pushback, and it’s crucial we

clarify

1275

00:34:52,800 –> 00:34:52,800

Josephine Nolan:this.

1276

00:34:52,800 –> 00:34:56,400

Josephine Nolan: It is absolutely

not about seeking out suffering or

romanticizing

1277

00:34:56,400 –> 00:35:00,480

Josephine Nolan: trauma or forcing

yourself to dwell in misery to earn

1278

00:35:00,480 –> 00:35:01,920

Josephine Nolan: some kind of

spiritual badge of honor.

1280

00:35:02,400 –> 00:35:02,559

Dave Lang: Okay, good.

1281

00:35:02,559 –> 00:35:03,599

Dave Lang: So what does the eating

mean?

1283

00:35:04,000 –> 00:35:06,159

Josephine Nolan: The eating of the

poison in this metaphor refers

strictly

1284

00:35:06,159 –> 00:35:08,559

Josephine Nolan: to the practice of

acceptance rather than aversion.

1286

00:35:09,360 –> 00:35:09,360

Dave Lang: Ah.

1287

00:35:09,360 –> 00:35:11,599

Dave Lang: We are back to dropping

the aversion.

1289

00:35:12,400 –> 00:35:12,400

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

1290

00:35:12,400 –> 00:35:15,199

Josephine Nolan: When you have a

grief attack, your immediate

biological

1291

00:35:15,199 –> 00:35:16,559

Josephine Nolan: instinct is

aversion.

1292

00:35:16,559 –> 00:35:18,719

Josephine Nolan: You want to vomit

the poison out.

1293

00:35:18,719 –> 00:35:19,519

Josephine Nolan: You want to run

away.

1295

00:35:19,920 –> 00:35:19,920

Dave Lang: Right.

1296

00:35:19,920 –> 00:35:22,639

Dave Lang: You say, I can’t feel

this, make it stop, give me a pill,

give

1297

00:35:22,639 –> 00:35:23,679

Dave Lang: me a drink, I want to be

numb.

1299

00:35:24,159 –> 00:35:26,719

Josephine Nolan: But as we

establish, avoiding the pain only

causes more

1300

00:35:26,719 –> 00:35:26,960

Josephine Nolan: panic.

1301

00:35:26,960 –> 00:35:28,800

Josephine Nolan: It feeds the innate

demon.

1302

00:35:28,800 –> 00:35:32,559

Josephine Nolan: By consciously

eating the poison, you are simply

accepting

1303

00:35:32,559 –> 00:35:34,559

Josephine Nolan: the stark reality

of the loss.

1305

00:35:35,119 –> 00:35:35,840

Dave Lang: You’re just letting it

be.

1307

00:35:36,239 –> 00:35:38,239

Josephine Nolan: You are sitting in

the quiet house, feeling the

venomous

1308

00:35:38,239 –> 00:35:42,639

Josephine Nolan: painfully without

running, and recognizing it as the

universal

1309

00:35:42,639 –> 00:35:44,800

Josephine Nolan: burden that

Kisagotami discovered.

1311

00:35:45,360 –> 00:35:46,960

Dave Lang: You let the poison move

through your system.

1312

00:35:46,960 –> 00:35:50,320

Dave Lang: And how does that painful

acceptance become radiant feathers?

1314

00:35:51,119 –> 00:35:54,320

Josephine Nolan: Because surviving

that depth of absolute sorrow and

processing

1315

00:35:54,320 –> 00:35:56,960

Josephine Nolan: it without running

away from it or numbing it

fundamentally

1316

00:35:56,960 –> 00:35:58,639

Josephine Nolan: rewires your

empathy.

1317

00:35:58,639 –> 00:36:00,559

Josephine Nolan: It burns away

superficiality.

1319

00:36:01,760 –> 00:36:01,760

Dave Lang: Wow.

1321

00:36:02,239 –> 00:36:05,599

Josephine Nolan: It transmutes the

poison of your acute, isolated

personal

1322

00:36:05,599 –> 00:36:09,119

Josephine Nolan: loss into the

nectar of deep universal compassion.

1323

00:36:09,119 –> 00:36:13,199

Josephine Nolan: When you have

truly, deeply felt the crushing

weight of

1324

00:36:13,199 –> 00:36:16,320

Josephine Nolan: grief, when you

know what the 50-foot wave feels

like,

1325

00:36:16,320 –> 00:36:19,840

Josephine Nolan: you develop an

incredible, radiant empathy for

every other

1326

00:36:19,840 –> 00:36:21,760

Josephine Nolan: human being who is

caught in that storm.

1328

00:36:22,400 –> 00:36:23,519

Dave Lang: You gain the wisdom of

discernment.

1329

00:36:23,519 –> 00:36:27,599

Dave Lang: Your personal tragedy

becomes the source of your greatest

capacity

1330

00:36:27,599 –> 00:36:28,400

Dave Lang: to love others.

1332

00:36:28,960 –> 00:36:31,519

Josephine Nolan: You stop being a

helpless victim of the storm and you

1333

00:36:31,519 –> 00:36:33,599

Josephine Nolan: become a shelter

for others who are shivering in it.

1335

00:36:34,079 –> 00:36:34,079

Dave Lang: Precisely.

1336

00:36:34,079 –> 00:36:38,159

Dave Lang: The grief doesn’t

disappear, it is transmuted into

purpose.

1338

00:36:38,719 –> 00:36:39,519

Speaker 2: That’s beautifully said.

1340

00:36:40,079 –> 00:36:42,639

Dave Lang: But even with all of this

brilliant psychological reframing,

1341

00:36:42,639 –> 00:36:46,559

Dave Lang: even with understanding

emptiness and non-fabrication and

the

1342

00:36:46,559 –> 00:36:50,400

Dave Lang: transformation of clouds,

for a lot of people, the deepest,

1343

00:36:50,400 –> 00:36:54,559

Dave Lang: most agonizing, lingering

grief comes from a very specific

external

1344

00:36:54,559 –> 00:36:55,039

Dave Lang: worry.

1346

00:36:55,679 –> 00:36:57,199

Josephine Nolan: Worrying about the

loved one who has passed.

1348

00:36:57,760 –> 00:36:57,760

Dave Lang: Yes.

1349

00:36:57,760 –> 00:36:59,679

Dave Lang: Worrying about where they

are right now.

1350

00:36:59,679 –> 00:37:00,480

Dave Lang: Are they scared?

1351

00:37:00,480 –> 00:37:01,360

Dave Lang: Are they alone?

1352

00:37:01,360 –> 00:37:02,239

Dave Lang: Are they in pain?

1354

00:37:02,880 –> 00:37:03,599

Josephine Nolan: It’s a haunting

feeling.

1356

00:37:04,159 –> 00:37:06,639

Dave Lang: And this is especially

potent when it comes to the passing

of

1357

00:37:06,639 –> 00:37:10,000

Dave Lang: a beloved pet, where we

feel entirely, completely

responsible

1358

00:37:10,000 –> 00:37:13,199

Dave Lang: for their well-being, and

they can’t speak to tell us they are

1359

00:37:13,199 –> 00:37:13,360

Dave Lang: okay.

1361

00:37:13,840 –> 00:37:15,840

Josephine Nolan: Oh, losing a pet is

uniquely painful.

1363

00:37:16,719 –> 00:37:20,239

Dave Lang: So we need to transition

from these internal psychological

management

1364

00:37:20,239 –> 00:37:25,440

Dave Lang: tools to actionable

devotional practices, tools that

give the

1365

00:37:25,440 –> 00:37:28,880

Dave Lang: grieving person a sense

of agency and offer profound active

1366

00:37:28,880 –> 00:37:28,880

Dave Lang:comfort.

1368

00:37:29,679 –> 00:37:32,480

Josephine Nolan: And this brings us

back to the figure of Amitabha

Buddha.

1369

00:37:32,480 –> 00:37:35,440

Josephine Nolan: As we mentioned,

Amitabha translates to infinite

light.

1370

00:37:35,440 –> 00:37:35,760

Josephine Nolan: Right.

1371

00:37:35,760 –> 00:37:38,559

Josephine Nolan: He is the central

figure of the Lotus family in

Vajrayana,

1372

00:37:38,559 –> 00:37:42,639

Josephine Nolan: and his defining

characteristic, his entire spiritual

1373

00:37:42,639 –> 00:37:45,920

Josephine Nolan: ethos, is his

magnetizing power of boundless

compassion.

1375

00:37:46,800 –> 00:37:50,079

Dave Lang: And he presides over a

specific realm, a pure land called

Sukhavati.

1376

00:37:50,079 –> 00:37:53,519

Dave Lang: It translates to the

happy realm or the land of ultimate

bliss.

1378

00:37:54,000 –> 00:37:56,400

Josephine Nolan: The concept of

Sukhavati is central to pure land

Buddhism,

1379

00:37:56,400 –> 00:37:59,039

Josephine Nolan: which is incredibly

popular across all of East Asia.

1381

00:37:59,599 –> 00:38:00,000

Dave Lang: Is it like heaven?

1383

00:38:00,559 –> 00:38:03,599

Josephine Nolan: Well, it is a

cosmological paradise created

entirely by

1384

00:38:03,599 –> 00:38:05,760

Josephine Nolan: Amitabha’s immense

merit and vows.

1385

00:38:05,760 –> 00:38:08,880

Josephine Nolan: Now, it’s important

to understand this isn’t exactly

heaven

1386

00:38:08,880 –> 00:38:13,360

Josephine Nolan: in the Western

Judeo-Christian sense of a final

static

1387

00:38:13,360 –> 00:38:15,360

Josephine Nolan: reward where you

sit on a cloud forever.

1389

00:38:16,000 –> 00:38:16,480

Dave Lang: What makes it different?

1391

00:38:16,960 –> 00:38:19,760

Josephine Nolan: It is an ideal,

perfectly designed environment for

continuing

1392

00:38:19,760 –> 00:38:23,519

Josephine Nolan: your spiritual

evolution without the heavy,

dragging suffering

1393

00:38:23,519 –> 00:38:26,159

Josephine Nolan: and distractions of

our current physical realm.

1395

00:38:26,719 –> 00:38:28,719

Dave Lang: The sources describe

Sukhavati so beautifully.

1396

00:38:28,719 –> 00:38:36,320

Dave Lang: It’s an environment

perfectly conducive to profound

peace. It says there’s no suffering

at all.

1399

00:38:37,039 –> 00:38:38,400

Dave Lang: And the environment

itself is a teacher.

1400

00:38:38,400 –> 00:38:41,519

Dave Lang: It says that even the

sound of the soft wind blowing

through

1401

00:38:41,519 –> 00:38:44,880

Dave Lang: the jeweled trees creates

delicate music that naturally,

effortlessly

1402

00:38:44,880 –> 00:38:47,119

Dave Lang: inspires mindfulness and

calm.

1404

00:38:47,760 –> 00:38:50,320

Josephine Nolan: It is the ultimate

safe harbor for a transitioning

consciousness,

1405

00:38:50,320 –> 00:38:53,679

Josephine Nolan: and the specific

devotional practice associated with

it

1406

00:38:53,679 –> 00:38:55,920

Josephine Nolan: is designed to help

guide the consciousness of a dying

1407

00:38:55,920 –> 00:38:59,119

Josephine Nolan: loved one or your

own consciousness toward that exact

1408

00:38:59,119 –> 00:38:59,360

Josephine Nolan: safe harbor.

1410

00:39:00,000 –> 00:39:02,639

Dave Lang: And this practice is

known as phowa Let’s define phowa.

1411

00:39:02,639 –> 00:39:05,599

Dave Lang: It translates to

consciousness transference.

1412

00:39:05,599 –> 00:39:10,320

Dave Lang: Now, traditionally, if

you read the ancient texts, this is

a

1413

00:39:10,320 –> 00:39:13,119

Dave Lang: highly advanced, complex

yogic practice.

1415

00:39:13,599 –> 00:39:13,840

Josephine Nolan: Very complex.

1417

00:39:14,480 –> 00:39:18,079

Dave Lang: It involves years of

training, complex visualizations of

internal

1418

00:39:18,079 –> 00:39:21,679

Dave Lang: energy channels and

chakras, and specific mantras

designed to

1419

00:39:21,679 –> 00:39:24,639

Dave Lang: literally eject the

consciousness out of the crown of

the head

1420

00:39:24,639 –> 00:39:26,239

Dave Lang: at the exact moment of

death.

1422

00:39:26,719 –> 00:39:29,039

Josephine Nolan: Which is obviously

far beyond the capability of the

average

1423

00:39:29,039 –> 00:39:30,800

Josephine Nolan: person standing in

a hospital room.

1425

00:39:31,280 –> 00:39:31,280

Dave Lang: Absolutely.

1426

00:39:31,280 –> 00:39:35,199

Dave Lang: But our sources feature a

fascinating interview with Zasep

Tulku

1427

00:39:35,199 –> 00:39:39,519

Dave Lang: Rinpoche, a highly

respected modern Tibetan teacher,

and he

1428

00:39:39,519 –> 00:39:42,639

Dave Lang: offers a beautiful,

accessible adaptation for modern

caregivers.

1429

00:39:42,639 –> 00:39:45,280

Dave Lang: He calls it a phowa for

the West.

1431

00:39:45,840 –> 00:39:47,599

Josephine Nolan: Yes, he explicitly

demystifies it.

1432

00:39:47,599 –> 00:39:49,679

Josephine Nolan: He says you don’t

need the complex yogic

visualizations

1433

00:39:49,679 –> 00:39:52,880

Josephine Nolan: of energy channels

to help someone else transition

peacefully.

1435

00:39:53,519 –> 00:39:54,000

Dave Lang:So what do you do?

1437

00:39:54,239 –> 00:39:56,639

Josephine Nolan: The phowa for the

West is simply about acting as a

gentle,

1438

00:39:56,639 –> 00:39:58,960

Josephine Nolan: reassuring,

completely grounded guide.

1439

00:39:58,960 –> 00:40:01,599

Josephine Nolan: If you are sitting

with a family member who is actively

1440

00:40:01,599 –> 00:40:05,039

Josephine Nolan: passing, or if you

work in hospice care, your job is to

1441

00:40:05,039 –> 00:40:07,519

Josephine Nolan: simply talk to the

patient softly and with absolute

conviction.

1443

00:40:08,320 –> 00:40:10,800

Dave Lang: You are stepping in to

give them explicit permission to

leave.

1445

00:40:11,280 –> 00:40:11,280

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

1446

00:40:11,280 –> 00:40:14,719

Josephine Nolan: The dying are often

holding on because they sense the

1447

00:40:14,719 –> 00:40:15,920

Josephine Nolan: panic and grief of

their family.

1448

00:40:15,920 –> 00:40:19,760

Josephine Nolan: Zasep Tulku

Rinpoche suggests leaning in close

and saying

1449

00:40:19,760 –> 00:40:22,400

Josephine Nolan: something like, You

know you are dying now.

1450

00:40:22,400 –> 00:40:23,199

Josephine Nolan: It is okay.

1451

00:40:23,199 –> 00:40:24,239

Josephine Nolan: Let it go.

1452

00:40:24,239 –> 00:40:25,599

Josephine Nolan: You should go

peacefully.

1453

00:40:25,599 –> 00:40:30,320

Josephine Nolan: As you go, imagine

you are going to the pure land, or

1454

00:40:30,320 –> 00:40:32,719

Josephine Nolan: going into the

light, or into eternal bliss.

1456

00:40:33,440 –> 00:40:36,800

Dave Lang: You are actively

replacing their terror of the

unknown void

1457

00:40:36,800 –> 00:40:39,840

Dave Lang: with a strong, comforting

visualization of peace and light.

1459

00:40:40,320 –> 00:40:43,039

Josephine Nolan: You are providing

the calm, steady anchor when their

own

1460

00:40:43,039 –> 00:40:45,679

Josephine Nolan: mind is likely

fabricating terrifying scenarios.

1462

00:40:46,559 –> 00:40:48,800

Dave Lang: And this beautiful

practice extends to our animal

companions

1463

00:40:48,800 –> 00:40:49,440

Dave Lang: too.

1464

00:40:49,440 –> 00:40:52,639

Dave Lang: Want to spend some time

here because losing a pet is a

uniquely

1465

00:40:52,639 –> 00:40:55,199

Dave Lang: heartbreaking,

disenfranchised grief.

1467

00:40:55,679 –> 00:40:56,000

Josephine Nolan: It really is.

1469

00:40:56,400 –> 00:40:59,119

Dave Lang: They are helpless, they

trust us implicitly, and they don’t

1470

00:40:59,119 –> 00:41:01,280

Dave Lang: conceptually understand

what is happening to their bodies

when

1471

00:41:01,280 –> 00:41:01,679

Dave Lang: they are dying.

1473

00:41:02,079 –> 00:41:05,039

Josephine Nolan: The sources detail

is specific animal phowa based on

the

1474

00:41:05,039 –> 00:41:07,920

Josephine Nolan: methods of the

great Tibetan master Dzong-ngön Pema

Tukchok

1475

00:41:07,920 –> 00:41:08,480

Josephine Nolan: Dorje.

1477

00:41:09,119 –> 00:41:10,239

Dave Lang: And what’s the core of

his method?

1479

00:41:10,880 –> 00:41:13,280

Josephine Nolan: The absolute core

of this practice is creating a

physical

1480

00:41:13,280 –> 00:41:16,719

Josephine Nolan: and emotional

environment that minimizes the

animal’s

1481

00:41:16,719 –> 00:41:17,760

Josephine Nolan: distress at all

costs.

1483

00:41:18,400 –> 00:41:20,639

Dave Lang: Which requires the human

to do the hardest thing imaginable.

1484

00:41:20,639 –> 00:41:25,119

Dave Lang: Completely managing and

suppressing your own active grief in

1485

00:41:25,119 –> 00:41:25,440

Dave Lang: the room.

1486

00:41:25,440 –> 00:41:28,960

Dave Lang: The texts are very strict

and clear about this.

1487

00:41:28,960 –> 00:41:33,440

Dave Lang: You must refrain from

weeping, sobbing, or wailing around

the

1488

00:41:33,440 –> 00:41:33,920

Dave Lang: dying animal.

1490

00:41:34,400 –> 00:41:35,920

Josephine Nolan: It sounds harsh,

but there’s a reason.

1491

00:41:35,920 –> 00:41:40,079

Josephine Nolan: Animals are

incredibly biologically sensitive to

our emotional

1492

00:41:40,079 –> 00:41:41,599

Josephine Nolan: states and our fear

hormones.

1494

00:41:42,079 –> 00:41:42,079

Dave Lang: Right.

1495

00:41:42,079 –> 00:41:42,960

Dave Lang: They can smell our fear.

1497

00:41:43,440 –> 00:41:43,440

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

1498

00:41:43,440 –> 00:41:47,280

Josephine Nolan: If you are

panicking, hyperventilating, and

wailing over

1499

00:41:47,280 –> 00:41:50,159

Josephine Nolan: them, the animal’s

consciousness becomes severely

distressed.

1500

00:41:50,159 –> 00:41:53,679

Josephine Nolan: They feel your fear

and they assume there is a threat

1501

00:41:53,679 –> 00:41:53,840

Josephine Nolan: in the room.

1503

00:41:54,239 –> 00:41:54,800

Dave Lang: So they can’t relax.

1505

00:41:55,440 –> 00:41:55,440

Josephine Nolan: Right.

1506

00:41:55,440 –> 00:41:58,719

Josephine Nolan: Your absolute duty

is to create a peaceful, grounded

environment

1507

00:41:58,719 –> 00:42:02,159

Josephine Nolan: so their

consciousness can transition calmly

without fear.

1509

00:42:02,719 –> 00:42:05,599

Dave Lang: The practice for animals

also utilizes a technique called

liberation

1510

00:42:05,599 –> 00:42:06,480

Dave Lang: by touch.

1512

00:42:07,119 –> 00:42:09,280

Josephine Nolan: This is a very

tactile, comforting practice.

1513

00:42:09,280 –> 00:42:13,119

Josephine Nolan: It involves placing

a physical object that has been

infused

1514

00:42:13,119 –> 00:42:16,719

Josephine Nolan: with spiritual

blessings like a printed mandala, a

mantra

1515

00:42:16,719 –> 00:42:20,000

Josephine Nolan: wheel, or even just

a piece of paper with a written

mantra

1516

00:42:20,000 –> 00:42:24,239

Josephine Nolan: like om mani padme

hum gently on the crown of the pet’s

1517

00:42:24,239 –> 00:42:24,639

Josephine Nolan: head.

1519

00:42:25,280 –> 00:42:26,480

Dave Lang: Why the crown of the head

specifically?

1521

00:42:27,119 –> 00:42:29,760

Josephine Nolan: In Tibetan

Vajrayana physiology, the crown of

the head,

1522

00:42:29,760 –> 00:42:33,039

Josephine Nolan: the fontanelle, is

considered the ideal exit point for

1523

00:42:33,039 –> 00:42:34,079

Josephine Nolan: consciousness

during phowa.

1525

00:42:34,800 –> 00:42:35,039

Dave Lang: Oh, interesting.

1527

00:42:35,679 –> 00:42:38,000

Josephine Nolan: Guiding the energy

upwards is believed to lead to

higher

1528

00:42:38,000 –> 00:42:41,119

Josephine Nolan: rebirths, whereas

consciousness exiting from the lower

1529

00:42:41,119 –> 00:42:42,880

Josephine Nolan: body leads to lower

realms.

1530

00:42:42,880 –> 00:42:46,480

Josephine Nolan: By placing the

blessing on the crown, you are

drawing

1531

00:42:46,480 –> 00:42:47,519

Josephine Nolan: their subtle energy

upward.

1533

00:42:48,159 –> 00:42:51,599

Dave Lang: So you gently touch them,

hold the mantra to their crown, and

1534

00:42:51,599 –> 00:42:52,480

Dave Lang: softly chant.

1535

00:42:52,480 –> 00:42:55,920

Dave Lang: The atmosphere in the

vet’s office or the living room

should

1536

00:42:55,920 –> 00:42:59,280

Dave Lang: be filled with soothing

rhythmic sounds, not chaotic sorrow.

1537

00:42:59,280 –> 00:42:59,840

Dave Lang: Right.

1538

00:42:59,840 –> 00:43:02,880

Dave Lang: Which leads us to the

protective seal of chanting itself.

1539

00:43:02,880 –> 00:43:06,960

Dave Lang: The sound of a mantra is

a physiological and psychological

tool.

1541

00:43:07,519 –> 00:43:09,920

Josephine Nolan: The acoustic

vibration of chanting is deeply

grounding

1542

00:43:09,920 –> 00:43:11,519

Josephine Nolan: for both the

chanter and the listener.

1544

00:43:12,079 –> 00:43:12,719

Dave Lang: What chant do they

recommend?

1546

00:43:13,199 –> 00:43:16,159

Josephine Nolan: For Amitabha, the

primary heart mantra used at the

time

1547

00:43:16,159 –> 00:43:20,079

Josephine Nolan: of death is Om Ami

Deva Hri, or sometimes pronounced Om

1548

00:43:20,079 –> 00:43:20,880

Josephine Nolan: Amitabha Hrih.

1550

00:43:21,679 –> 00:43:22,239

Dave Lang: What does that do?

1552

00:43:22,639 –> 00:43:25,440

Josephine Nolan: Chanting this

specific sequence of syllables is

said to

1553

00:43:25,440 –> 00:43:27,920

Josephine Nolan: magnetize an

auspicious rebirth in Sukhavati.

1554

00:43:27,920 –> 00:43:32,400

Josephine Nolan: It literally

surrounds the entire transition with

the

1555

00:43:32,400 –> 00:43:34,159

Josephine Nolan: energetic vibration

of infinite light.

1557

00:43:34,719 –> 00:43:38,000

Dave Lang: The sources also heavily

emphasize another chant, the

Ushnisha

1558

00:43:38,000 –> 00:43:42,000

Dave Lang: Vijaya Dharani, also

known as the Rebirth Dharani.

1559

00:43:42,000 –> 00:43:45,360

Dave Lang: Now, before we get into

its story, what is the technical

difference

1560

00:43:45,360 –> 00:43:46,719

Dave Lang: between a mantra and a

dharani?

1561

00:43:46,719 –> 00:43:49,679

Dave Lang: We throw these words

around, but they mean different

things.

1563

00:43:50,079 –> 00:43:50,960

Josephine Nolan: It’s a great

distinction to make.

1564

00:43:50,960 –> 00:43:53,920

Josephine Nolan: A mantraOm Ami

Deva Hrih is typically short.

1565

00:43:53,920 –> 00:43:56,800

Josephine Nolan: It is often just a

few syllables representing the

distilled

1566

00:43:56,800 –> 00:43:59,440

Josephine Nolan: essence or the

heart of a specific deity or

concept.

1567

00:43:59,440 –> 00:44:03,360

Josephine Nolan: It’s meant for

rapid, repetitive recitation to

focus the

1568

00:44:03,360 –> 00:44:03,519

Josephine Nolan: mind.

1570

00:44:04,000 –> 00:44:04,320

Dave Lang: And a dharani?

1572

00:44:05,039 –> 00:44:06,719

Josephine Nolan: A dharani, on the

other hand, is much longer.

1573

00:44:06,719 –> 00:44:10,559

Josephine Nolan: It is essentially a

magical incantation or a phonetic

1574

00:44:10,559 –> 00:44:13,119

Josephine Nolan: summary of a much

larger, complex sutra teaching.

1575

00:44:13,119 –> 00:44:16,239

Josephine Nolan: It holds the power

of the full teaching encoded within

1576

00:44:16,239 –> 00:44:16,639

Josephine Nolan: its sounds.

1578

00:44:17,199 –> 00:44:17,360

Dave Lang: Got it.

1579

00:44:17,360 –> 00:44:20,239

Dave Lang: And the origin story for

this specific rebirth Dharani is

fascinating.

1581

00:44:21,039 –> 00:44:23,280

Josephine Nolan: Yes, according to

the text, the Buddha gave this

specific

1582

00:44:23,280 –> 00:44:26,960

Josephine Nolan: Dharani to a

Devaputra, which translates to a son

of a

1583

00:44:26,960 –> 00:44:28,639

Josephine Nolan: god living in the

heavenly realms.

1585

00:44:29,280 –> 00:44:29,280

Dave Lang: Okay.

1587

00:44:29,679 –> 00:44:32,639

Josephine Nolan: This Devaputra had

lived a life of immense privilege

and

1588

00:44:32,639 –> 00:44:35,039

Josephine Nolan: pleasure, but his

karmic time was up.

1589

00:44:35,039 –> 00:44:37,920

Josephine Nolan: With his

clairvoyance, he saw that his

remaining karma

1590

00:44:37,920 –> 00:44:40,719

Josephine Nolan: was going to cause

him to fall out of heaven and plunge

1591

00:44:40,719 –> 00:44:43,039

Josephine Nolan: into the lower

realms of intense suffering.

1593

00:44:43,679 –> 00:44:45,039

Dave Lang: Like the animal realms or

the hell realms.

1595

00:44:45,599 –> 00:44:45,599

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

1596

00:44:45,599 –> 00:44:48,800

Josephine Nolan: For seven

consecutive lifetimes, he was

absolutely terrified.

1598

00:44:49,440 –> 00:44:52,639

Dave Lang: So he begs for help, and

the Buddha gives him this specific

1599

00:44:52,639 –> 00:44:53,440

Dave Lang: Dharani to chant.

1601

00:44:53,920 –> 00:44:53,920

Josephine Nolan: Right.

1603

00:44:54,480 –> 00:44:57,679

Dave Lang: And the text says that

chanting it completely eradicated

that

1604

00:44:57,679 –> 00:45:01,679

Dave Lang: heavy negative karma and

ensured he would be reborn in a pure

1605

00:45:01,679 –> 00:45:05,039

Dave Lang: Buddha land, entirely

free from those lower realms of

suffering.

1607

00:45:05,920 –> 00:45:08,719

Josephine Nolan: The ancient promise

of this Dharani is that merely

hearing

1608

00:45:08,719 –> 00:45:12,960

Josephine Nolan: it or chanting it

purifies deep obscurations and

brings

1609

00:45:12,960 –> 00:45:14,400

Josephine Nolan: profound peace to

the dying.

1611

00:45:14,960 –> 00:45:15,679

Dave Lang: Okay, I have to pause

here.

1612

00:45:15,679 –> 00:45:16,800

Dave Lang: I want to address the

listener directly.

1614

00:45:17,280 –> 00:45:17,599

Josephine Nolan: Go for it.

1616

00:45:18,000 –> 00:45:20,639

Dave Lang: If you are a secular

listener, or if you go from a

completely

1617

00:45:20,639 –> 00:45:23,519

Dave Lang: different faith

background, you might be listening

to this and

1618

00:45:23,519 –> 00:45:26,639

Dave Lang: thinking, this is

fascinating history, but I am not

going to

1619

00:45:26,639 –> 00:45:29,760

Dave Lang: sit on the floor of the

vet’s office and chant ancient

Sanskrit

1620

00:45:29,760 –> 00:45:31,440

Dave Lang: syllables over my golden

retriever.

1622

00:45:32,320 –> 00:45:33,199

Josephine Nolan: Which is totally

understandable.

1624

00:45:33,920 –> 00:45:35,039

Dave Lang: I totally validate that

skepticism.

1626

00:45:35,760 –> 00:45:35,760

Josephine Nolan: Yeah.

1628

00:45:36,480 –> 00:45:40,639

Dave Lang: So what is the actual

psychological value of these rituals

for

1629

00:45:40,639 –> 00:45:44,079

Dave Lang: someone who doesn’t

literally believe in Sukhavati or

the six

1630

00:45:44,079 –> 00:45:46,400

Dave Lang: realms of rebirth or

magical incantations?

1632

00:45:47,440 –> 00:45:50,320

Josephine Nolan: This raises an

important question because even if

you

1633

00:45:50,320 –> 00:45:53,360

Josephine Nolan: completely strip

away the specific religious dogma,

even

1634

00:45:53,360 –> 00:45:56,079

Josephine Nolan: if you view it

purely as a secular psychological

framework,

1635

00:45:56,079 –> 00:45:59,920

Josephine Nolan: these rituals

provide immense, irreplaceable

value.

1637

00:46:00,480 –> 00:46:00,719

Dave Lang: How so?

1639

00:46:01,119 –> 00:46:02,880

Josephine Nolan: Think about what

happens when you are sitting with

someone

1640

00:46:02,880 –> 00:46:05,039

Josephine Nolan: who is dying,

whether it’s your mother or your

dog.

1641

00:46:05,039 –> 00:46:08,800

Josephine Nolan: The primary

overwhelming emotion you feel is

absolute

1642

00:46:08,800 –> 00:46:08,800

Josephine Nolan:helplessness.

1644

00:46:09,840 –> 00:46:12,400

Dave Lang: You feel like you are

failing them because you cannot stop

what

1645

00:46:12,400 –> 00:46:12,719

Dave Lang: is happening.

1646

00:46:12,719 –> 00:46:14,000

Dave Lang: You cannot save them.

1648

00:46:14,480 –> 00:46:14,480

Josephine Nolan: Exactly.

1649

00:46:14,480 –> 00:46:18,480

Josephine Nolan: And that profound

helplessness breeds the panic we

discussed

1650

00:46:18,480 –> 00:46:19,119

Josephine Nolan: in the beginning.

1651

00:46:19,119 –> 00:46:20,800

Josephine Nolan: It feeds the innate

demon.

1653

00:46:21,360 –> 00:46:22,400

Dave Lang: The panic just takes

over.

1655

00:46:22,880 –> 00:46:26,159

Josephine Nolan: But these

devotional tools, the structured

guiding words

1656

00:46:26,159 –> 00:46:29,599

Josephine Nolan: of the Phowa for

the West, the intentional, gentle

touch

1657

00:46:29,599 –> 00:46:32,320

Josephine Nolan: on the crown of the

head, the rhythmic,

breathing-regulated

1658

00:46:32,320 –> 00:46:36,639

Josephine Nolan: chanting of a

mantra that they do something

incredible.

1659

00:46:36,639 –> 00:46:40,079

Josephine Nolan: They give the

grieving person a focal point of

supreme

1660

00:46:40,079 –> 00:46:40,639

Josephine Nolan: compassion.

1662

00:46:41,440 –> 00:46:42,320

Dave Lang: It gives you a job to do.

1664

00:46:42,719 –> 00:46:42,719

Josephine Nolan: Yes.

1665

00:46:42,719 –> 00:46:46,400

Josephine Nolan: You completely

replace the agonizing, chaotic

helplessness

1666

00:46:46,400 –> 00:46:50,400

Josephine Nolan: with a profound,

highly structured act of love.

1667

00:46:50,400 –> 00:46:53,599

Josephine Nolan: You are giving the

dying person or animal your absolute

1668

00:46:53,599 –> 00:46:55,920

Josephine Nolan: calm, your focused

attention, your intention.

1670

00:46:56,719 –> 00:46:59,440

Dave Lang: You are ensuring that

their final transition is wrapped in

the

1671

00:46:59,440 –> 00:47:02,800

Dave Lang: soothing rhythm of your

piece rather than the chaotic,

terrifying

1672

00:47:02,800 –> 00:47:04,159

Dave Lang: static of your own panic.

1674

00:47:04,800 –> 00:47:06,639

Josephine Nolan: It is a final,

beautiful, actionable gift.

1675

00:47:06,639 –> 00:47:08,159

Josephine Nolan: It is love in

motion.

1676

00:47:08,159 –> 00:47:08,800

Josephine Nolan: Okay.

1678

00:47:09,599 –> 00:47:12,000

Dave Lang: We have covered a truly

massive amount of ground today.

1680

00:47:12,400 –> 00:47:12,719

Speaker 2: We really have.

1682

00:47:13,119 –> 00:47:16,320

Dave Lang: We’ve gone from the

neurology of panic to the esoteric

chants

1683

00:47:16,320 –> 00:47:17,440

Dave Lang: of eighth century Tibet.

1684

00:47:17,440 –> 00:47:20,000

Dave Lang: Let’s pull all of this

together into a cohesive roadmap.

1686

00:47:20,559 –> 00:47:21,199

Josephine Nolan: Let’s summarize it.

1688

00:47:21,599 –> 00:47:24,480

Dave Lang: If you take absolutely

nothing else away from this deep

dive

1689

00:47:24,480 –> 00:47:26,960

Dave Lang: into the grief attack,

remember this sequence.

1690

00:47:26,960 –> 00:47:30,559

Dave Lang: When that invisible

50-foot wave hits you in the grocery

store

1691

00:47:30,559 –> 00:47:33,360

Dave Lang: aisle and the mountain

starts to crush your chest.

1692

00:47:33,360 –> 00:47:35,679

Dave Lang: Recognize the phantom

limb.

1694

00:47:36,159 –> 00:47:36,719

Josephine Nolan: Drop the storyline.

1696

00:47:37,679 –> 00:47:40,719

Dave Lang: Do not feed the innate

demon with catastrophic thoughts

about

1697

00:47:40,719 –> 00:47:41,119

Dave Lang: the future.

1698

00:47:41,119 –> 00:47:42,480

Dave Lang: Rest your body.

1699

00:47:42,480 –> 00:47:46,400

Dave Lang: Stop speaking to cut the

verbal fuel, and rest your mind like

1700

00:47:46,400 –> 00:47:46,719

Dave Lang: a mute.

1702

00:47:47,280 –> 00:47:49,199

Josephine Nolan: Anchor yourself

entirely in a single breath.

1703

00:47:49,199 –> 00:47:51,599

Josephine Nolan: Shrink your

timeline down to just the next

inhalation,

1704

00:47:51,599 –> 00:47:53,840

Josephine Nolan: and the vagus nerve

will do the rest.

1705

00:47:53,840 –> 00:47:56,559

Josephine Nolan: Step out of the

timeline of suffering and into the

deathless

1706

00:47:56,559 –> 00:47:57,519

Josephine Nolan: present moment.

1708

00:47:58,000 –> 00:48:00,079

Dave Lang: Remember Kisigotami and

the mustard seed.

1709

00:48:00,079 –> 00:48:02,239

Dave Lang: You are absolutely not

alone in this pain.

1711

00:48:02,719 –> 00:48:04,480

Josephine Nolan: Remember the

physics of Thich Nhat Han.

1712

00:48:04,480 –> 00:48:07,039

Josephine Nolan: A cloud never dies,

it only transforms.

1714

00:48:07,840 –> 00:48:10,480

Dave Lang: And when the acute panic

finally fades to that hollow sorrow,

1715

00:48:10,480 –> 00:48:14,079

Dave Lang: allow yourself to eat the

poison through acceptance rather

than

1716

00:48:14,079 –> 00:48:14,320

Dave Lang: aversion.

1717

00:48:14,320 –> 00:48:18,320

Dave Lang: Transmute that agony into

the radiant peacock feathers of deep

1718

00:48:18,320 –> 00:48:19,199

Dave Lang: empathy for others.

1720

00:48:19,840 –> 00:48:22,000

Josephine Nolan: And finally, when

you are the one sitting by the

bedside,

1721

00:48:22,000 –> 00:48:26,320

Josephine Nolan: use the

psychological power of compassionate

ritual, whether

1722

00:48:26,320 –> 00:48:29,920

Josephine Nolan: it’s guiding words,

a gentle touch, or a chanted rhythm,

1723

00:48:29,920 –> 00:48:32,960

Josephine Nolan: to replace your

helplessness with an active,

beautiful

1724

00:48:32,960 –> 00:48:35,599

Josephine Nolan: expression of love

for the one who is transitioning.

1726

00:48:36,639 –> 00:48:38,719

Dave Lang: These are not just

abstract philosophical theories.

1727

00:48:38,719 –> 00:48:42,480

Dave Lang: They are practical,

field-tested technologies for

navigating

1728

00:48:42,480 –> 00:48:46,639

Dave Lang: the absolute most

difficult, devastating moments of

human existence.

1730

00:48:47,199 –> 00:48:47,599

Josephine Nolan: They really are.

1732

00:48:48,000 –> 00:48:50,480

Dave Lang: And to you, the listener,

we want to remind you directly.

1733

00:48:50,480 –> 00:48:54,800

Dave Lang: The isolation of grief is

a very convincing illusion, but you

1734

00:48:54,800 –> 00:48:56,960

Dave Lang: are never alone in the

human experience of sorrow.

1736

00:48:57,519 –> 00:48:57,519

Josephine Nolan: Never.

1738

00:48:58,079 –> 00:49:00,800

Dave Lang: This ancient wisdom,

these biological tools are fully

available

1739

00:49:00,800 –> 00:49:03,760

Dave Lang: to you right now, sitting

right there in your hands, and

whatever

1740

00:49:03,760 –> 00:49:06,960

Dave Lang: storm you are currently

facing, you always have the anchor

of

1741

00:49:06,960 –> 00:49:07,360

Dave Lang: your own breath.

1743

00:49:07,840 –> 00:49:09,679

Josephine Nolan: And as we close

today, I want to leave you with one

final

1744

00:49:09,679 –> 00:49:10,800

Josephine Nolan: thought to mull

over.

1745

00:49:10,800 –> 00:49:14,000

Josephine Nolan: We talked deeply

about transformation, about the

cloud

1746

00:49:14,000 –> 00:49:15,119

Josephine Nolan: never truly dying.

1748

00:49:15,679 –> 00:49:15,679

Dave Lang: Right.

1750

00:49:16,079 –> 00:49:18,320

Josephine Nolan: Our sources mention

a famous letter written by Albert

1751

00:49:18,320 –> 00:49:19,039

Josephine Nolan: Einstein in 1955.

1752

00:49:19,039 –> 00:49:23,039

Josephine Nolan: He was writing to

the widow of Michelle Besso, a very

1753

00:49:23,039 –> 00:49:24,239

Josephine Nolan: close friend who

had just passed away.

1755

00:49:24,800 –> 00:49:25,679

Dave Lang: Albert Einstein, the

physicist.

1757

00:49:26,320 –> 00:49:26,320

Josephine Nolan: Yes.

1758

00:49:26,320 –> 00:49:28,880

Josephine Nolan: And speaking as a

physicist, he wrote to this grieving

1759

00:49:28,880 –> 00:49:31,760

Josephine Nolan: widow to offer

comfort based entirely on the

mathematical

1760

00:49:31,760 –> 00:49:33,039

Josephine Nolan: laws of the

universe.

1762

00:49:34,079 –> 00:49:34,719

Dave Lang: What did he say?

1764

00:49:35,199 –> 00:49:37,760

Josephine Nolan: He wrote to her

that for people who truly understand

physics,

1765

00:49:37,760 –> 00:49:42,239

Josephine Nolan: the distinction

between past, present, and future is

only

1766

00:49:42,239 –> 00:49:44,000

Josephine Nolan: a stubbornly

persistent illusion.

1768

00:49:44,719 –> 00:49:46,079

Dave Lang: A stubbornly persistent

illusion.

1770

00:49:46,639 –> 00:49:49,199

Josephine Nolan: And think about the

massive implications of that single

1771

00:49:49,199 –> 00:49:49,760

Josephine Nolan: sentence.

1772

00:49:49,760 –> 00:49:53,440

Josephine Nolan: Every single atom

in the universe is endlessly

recycled.

1773

00:49:53,440 –> 00:49:56,239

Josephine Nolan: Energy becomes

matter, matter becomes energy.

1774

00:49:56,239 –> 00:49:59,039

Josephine Nolan: Nothing is ever,

ever truly destroyed.

1776

00:49:59,920 –> 00:49:59,920

Dave Lang: Wow.

1778

00:50:00,480 –> 00:50:02,800

Josephine Nolan: If that is true,

and if the timeline of past,

present,

1779

00:50:02,800 –> 00:50:05,840

Josephine Nolan: and future is

merely an illusion created by human

perception,

1780

00:50:05,840 –> 00:50:09,440

Josephine Nolan: then the person or

the beloved pet you are grieving

right

1781

00:50:09,440 –> 00:50:10,559

Josephine Nolan: now is not entirely

gone.

1783

00:50:11,280 –> 00:50:13,519

Dave Lang: Nor are they strictly

stranded behind you in the past.

1785

00:50:14,079 –> 00:50:16,639

Josephine Nolan: They are woven

permanently right now into the very

fabric

1786

00:50:16,639 –> 00:50:17,440

Josephine Nolan: of the cosmos.

1787

00:50:17,440 –> 00:50:20,800

Josephine Nolan: And because you are

made of that exact same recycled

star

1788

00:50:20,800 –> 00:50:23,119

Josephine Nolan: stuff, they are

woven into your very being.

1790

00:50:23,760 –> 00:50:25,760

Dave Lang: So the real question to

ask yourself as you walk out of the

1791

00:50:25,760 –> 00:50:28,960

Dave Lang: grocery store is this

where then does the boundary between

you

1792

00:50:28,960 –> 00:50:30,800

Dave Lang: and your loved one truly

begin and end?

1794

00:50:31,280 –> 00:50:34,719

Josephine Nolan: If time is an

illusion and matter is eternal, the

separation

1795

00:50:34,719 –> 00:50:38,480

Josephine Nolan: you feel so acutely

is just the mind struggling to

comprehend

1796

00:50:38,480 –> 00:50:40,239

Josephine Nolan: the massive scale

of the transformation.

1798

00:50:41,119 –> 00:50:42,320

Dave Lang: Which brings us right

back to the beginning.

1799

00:50:42,320 –> 00:50:46,800

Dave Lang: When you were standing in

aisle four and the invisible wave

1800

00:50:46,800 –> 00:50:49,599

Dave Lang: crashes over you, maybe

it isn’t an attack at all.

1801

00:50:49,599 –> 00:50:53,280

Dave Lang: Maybe it is just the

sudden, overwhelming, visceral

realization

1802

00:50:53,280 –> 00:50:57,039

Dave Lang: of how deeply and

permanently you are still connected

to them.

1804

00:50:57,440 –> 00:50:59,039

Josephine Nolan: It’s not a

diagnostic system failure.

1805

00:50:59,039 –> 00:51:02,960

Josephine Nolan: It’s the murky,

beautiful, painful reality of love

persisting

1806

00:51:02,960 –> 00:51:03,760

Josephine Nolan: through

transformation.

1808

00:51:04,559 –> 00:51:04,559

Dave Lang: Exactly.

1809

00:51:04,559 –> 00:51:07,039

Dave Lang: The wave will pass, but

the connection remains.

1810

00:51:07,039 –> 00:51:07,760

Dave Lang: Keep breathing.

1811

00:51:07,760 –> 00:51:09,760

Dave Lang: Catch you on the next

deep dive.

1813

00:51:12,480 –> 00:51:15,920

Nadine: This has been a Buddha

Weekly BuddhaCast, a deep dive with

Josephine

1814

00:51:15,920 –> 00:51:17,519

Nadine: Nolan and Dave Lang.

1815

00:51:17,519 –> 00:51:21,280

Nadine: Please like and subscribe.

1816

00:51:21,280 –> 00:51:27,760

Nadine: Please consider supporting

our Spread the Dharma mission at

BuddhaWeekly.com /

1817

00:51:27,760 –> 00:51:30,000

Nadine: support.

1818

00:51:30,000 –> 00:51:33,599

Nadine: May all beings benefit.